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Starting February 1st ALL new Exiern pages will post ONLY to Exiern.com and Our Patreon. Please read and support us there!
Swords, Sorcery, And Then Some!
Howdy, New Readers! Thanks for reading Exiern!
Written by Scott T. Hicken with art by Antipus, the comic updates Mondays. Please check out the Archive to enjoy the earlier adventures of Typh and Peonie!
Exiern contains mature themes and is best for readers 18+.
Well, that’s accurate though isn’t it? Once Typh decided on how he wanted to be called (after nearly skewering the king – the safety feature on that sword is literally priceless), everyone turned on a dime (most noticeably the king who went from calling him Tiffany in once sentence to Typhan-Knee the next) and absolutely everyone followed suit. After all, like he said, if he can’t even dress too masculine less the curse demolishes his clothers, he’ll take what he can get.
Generally everyone in this world seems to have been a lot more chill about it than our world would be.
Even his brother, who seems to have been the only one seemingly being derogatory about Typh’s situation was only doing so because despite being a man mountain that was much taller, bigger and presumably stronger was still no less terrified of Typh and was just trying to gain some kind of advantage in a fight, he cut it all out when the danger was past.
I took the ‘literally’ to mean as someone also attracted to men, Typh can also potentially see it from the same point of view as Peonie. The Oh? … Oh! from Phi is where I thought the light bulb went off in Phi’s head about Typh’s orientation went off. Though to be honest, who knows what people thought beforehand.
You would have gotten the page as originally intended via email anyway, right?
Now I’m suddenly for the first time realising that maybe Typh is drawing a correlation between the size of Phi’s nose and … something else. Maybe that’s actually what Phi was realising. Medical studies have probably already shown that it’s not true though I don’t know what medical research is like this side of the dimension jump though.
I’m militant on the point that pronoun gender attaches to anatomical, physical reality.
This accommodates the vast majority of people who don’t know Typh’s situation. The connection between gender and sex is deep and strong for languages that recognize it. It is almost always unwise to fray the moorings of language without
Then there’s that whole “physical reality” trumping “wishing makes it so” thing, which is my main beef.
In story terms, the spell itself demands that Typh accept her femininity to some degree, as we have seen. She she should at least tolerate correctly gendered pronouns.
Ahem. “unwise to fray the moorings of language without cause.”
===
I’ll be surprised if Phi’s nose has anything to do with it. Typh’s just pointing at his face.
Phi’s build is extravagantly masculine, regardless of what’s between his legs–but it’s consistent with what we know of both Peonie and Typh that they would find a well-endowed male attractive.
I don’t really care either way. Our world rules don’t necessarily apply to the world of Exiern.
However, Typh’s pretty famous so a lot of people would know. Even if they didn’t, in the past Typh hasn’t cared if they referred to him as “she, her” and “Tiffany”. Now he’s trying to assert himself to make a point even if he’s physically stuck this way for the rest of his life, he’d just correct those people who didn’t know.
This world seems pretty chill though. No-one in the general public (I’m leaving the Church of Rem out of this for now) seems to have been seen caring about Sister Teresa’s past, she’s even ended up queen and about the only reaction from the general populace seems to have been “Party? Party! Party!!!” and presumably questions about whether there’ll be cake and what kind. The king’s been super open minded in terms of both being engaged to Typh and then Teresa in short order.
Anyway, none of that applies to the people in the room because they all know Typh and his past. I usually dodge the subject entirely by usually avoiding using pronouns at all. Anatomical physical reality leads to a more complicated morass than a lot of people realise.
Then throw what’s happened in Dark Reflections into the mix and things get even more complicated.
It’s long been a popular belief that if certain visible body parts are large, then certain other unseen parts (depending on whether its the underpants version or not) must also follow in scale.
Scott, if you’re out there could we please have an adjudication on what you meant in this case?
@50sRefugee: Don’t see why you’re sighing, it’s been already established that Typhan-Knee still identifies as a man, so Peonie is simply using the proper pronouns to respect Typhan-Knee’s gender identity.
Jake, I’m sighing because I’m militant about the idea that pronoun gender attaches to physical reality, that is, to other people’s perceptions of a person. Go ahead, show Typh’s picture to anyone, and ask; they’ll automatically say, “Yup, she’s a girl.”
I know I’m in the minority here, and am unlikely to convince anyone. Too bad. Physical reality rules.
Yes, I know what pegging is. (I wish that people would stop assuming that I hold my opinions because I just don’t know any better.) But again, I was speaking in terms of anatomical reality, not artificial toys.
It’s not clear that Phi would accept a pegging, I wouldn’t either, except in occasional play after prior straight sex.
I neither want Typh to “defeat” the spell, or the spell to defeat her.)
Again, probably not going to convince anyone here. And again, too bad.
I really can’t agree about that being a workable test. Even among the straight non transgender population, the stereotypically manliest looking of women are going to overlap with the most feminine looking of men in that photo test.
By my reckoning, Typh was a gay man before the change and identifies as one despite the transformation after one. It helps that he’s had a continuity of memory and personality to maintain his sense of self, the biggest panic he’s had during the entire course of the story was when he momentarily forgot who he was.
More confusingly, the evidence of Typh’s Dark Reflection counterpart is pointing towards straight (though can’t rule out bi yet) and male before the change but now female and straight (though again can’t rule out bi yet) afterwards as she’s been Hauserised (of Quaidified if you like) a la 1990s Total Recall.
She’s had her brain totally scrubbed and her pre-change memories replaced with a copy of American Beauty. Which is why she desperately wants to bang Faden’s brains out. It also explains why she’s now so affably, murderously evil. Pre-change Typh here is currently for all intents and purposes, deleted or even dead right now. He may even be lost for all time for all we know now.
Even if pre-change Typh is potentially retrievable, she may have no interest in doing so because it’s like hearing about another person that she’s not.
I hope at least some of these implications are taken into account if they ever cross over. At least it’s not on the scale of Cura Te Ipsum’s massive multiverse and the resulting chaos *that* brings when everyone meets.
Well, we need all the facts first. On the one hand Peonie is using Typh’s bed. On the other hand, Typh did smash up a lot of furniture in that room beforehand. What’s the current functional status of Peonie’s bed?
Shan, it may well be that the “stereotypically manliest looking of women are going to overlap with the most feminine looking of men”, but language, especially down on the nuts and bolts level of pronouns, has got to be for the convenience of the vast majority of speakers in the vast majority of circumstances.
The bell curve tails must not wag the hump.
Again, do not assume my position arises from ignorance. This is far from a new conversation for me (not even here); indeed, there was a time when I’d’ve more or less agreed with you. But experience and study has convinced me of my current position.
Again, not the point. I just wanted to sigh over a minor annoyance, and thought everyone here knew I was perverted in my desire for the default recognition of anatomical reality.
I really don’t care past having to go and make the smallest of tweaks to a review I’ve written. From experience, anatomy and biology’s a funny business.
Anyway, moving one of the most important issues, if not the most important issue of the entire series, when is Typh getting a boyfriend? You can’t accuse them of needlessly rushing the issue. Even Typh’s Dark Reflection alternate version has had more success in his short time with us before being vaporized (he got to willingly kiss Peonie twice. Yes Faden was in there butit still counts). In ten plus Earth years, Typh’s willingly kissed Denver once and half points off for the first time because Typh was taken by surprise and immediately threw Denver into a tree. That’s literally been the sum total of all relationship encounters so far.
Even Dark Tiffany is not that far behind given that in the short time we’ve seen her, she’s willingly kissed Alicia. OK, that was for the express purpose of sucking the soul out of her body but still …
I believe it’s on the horizon though one of the definitions of a horizon is an imaginary line where the earth and sky seem to meet and which moves away from you as you approach it.
I’d settle for Exiern’s equivalent of the Sponge episode on Seinfeld, where Typh meets a successive number of prospective individuals and has to decide whether any of them are worth losing the Unicorn over. It might turn out to be the most successful abstinence method ever.
The story will be plotted well in advance so the outcome will probably be decided by the time we see the start of it but we can still have fun yelling from the comments section as each individual appears “HE’S NOT WORTHY!”
If it happens, I want it to be a real choice, not a series of gags. And yes, I want Typh to decide that, as wonderful as the unicorn is, and as sad as she’ll be to lose her, love is worth it.
(I’m guessing Denver, because dragon, but the choice is Typh’s. And Denver may have made a choice of his own that he prefers full dragonhood over Typh. She’s not the only one who gets to choose.)
But yeah: If it happens, I don’t want it to be a casual fling. I want Typh to mean it.
Well, the ‘series of gags’ would lead up to the real choice is one of the possibilities I had in mind. We’ve had no end of war, invasion, assassination attempts, kidnappings and the like. A bit of romantic comedy would make a nice change. Something that looked like some sort of conspiracy as everyone’s sneaking about but turned out to be everyone trying to fix up Typh on a date wouldn’t go astray if done well. I especially wouldn’t mind seeing the kingdom’s version of speed dating.
After all, we’ve already had the king and the head of the Theatre.
Peonie and Phi
Denver and Teresa is heavily implied (OH WE ALL KNOW THEY TOTALLY DID IT!)
Typh’s brother and Diana
Even Old Mac must have had somebody once (well it’s the simplest explanation as he has a granddaughter).
Typh’s pretty much the only one of the major characters who’s missed out so far. We’ve kind of been there and done that with Denver though. Plus he’s been gone a long time. Maybe someone new?
Typh’s pretty famous so there’s potential for some drama if it’s someone who knows Typh’s history and says they’re OK with it (and maybe even really believes it) but then isn’t so sure as Decision Day approaches if there comes a time where it at least seems Typh has found a way to change back.
My feeling is that the choice of a romantic partner, maybe even a husband, would mark a much bigger change for Typh than for most of us. For everyone you’ve mentioned, it may have been a dalliance, it may have been for life, but it was in the natural order of things.
For Typh, it would signal a major shift in her self-identity.
Yeah, took me a second to work out what Peonie meant by Typh being able to see why Peonie liked him literally. Pretty sure it’s not Phi understanding that Typh finds him attractive as well but that his manhood is on display and of good proportion.
On the discussion of Typh’s body and gender. Scott seems to be steering this story towards showing Typh’s strong desire to be male again. Don’t get me wrong, for fiction and story purpose I want Typh to remain female and suspect there will be no change back to male (permanently at least) because that would likely end the story.
However there is a difference between sexual preference and sexual identity and I’d no more expect someone in reality who identifies as their opposite sex to not ask to be treated and referred to as that sex and even seek to change to that sex, than I’d expect Typh who Scott has clearly shown to identify as his original male gender.
Typh certainly had some original issues about discrimination against women and/or the female body but he’s beyond that now and the drive to be a man again comes from a true part of himself that identifies as that gender.
While I can understand making it easy for the audience to interpret, the early days consisted of Peonie tentatively referring to Typh as “her” and “she” with it getting noticed by the audience. Now the audience notices Typh getting referred to as “he” and “him” as Typh has requested, which works well for what Scott is trying to tell in this story arc.
If I remember the comments correctly, are you the person who has all the original pages from the beginning before they got rewritten and redrawn? If so, is it possible to get a copy?
@ TotallyAnon
Typh and Peonie totally have this older sister/younger sister thing going on. More specifically, Typh prefers the company of men for certain things.
Though for a barbarian, Typh wasn’t ruthlessly pragmatic enough. I mean dude, you could have been queen. That’s just one small step from running the joint. Also, if history’s to be believed, a lot of queens were effectively in charge anyway in all but name.
I went back and read the last couple of months of pages and realised we’ve had the exact same discussion that we did in this comment section more or less. I made much better posts about Typh and the pronoun game then though.
As far as the gender specific pronouns go… Typh is both a deadly and dangerous person when provoked, as well as a loyal friend worthy of respect. And living in a castle where the people try to be courteous. It costs them nothing address Typh by the pronouns that Typh wishes to be addressed by. It’s like calling someone “Doctor” because they have a P.h.D, or calling a priest “Father.” I’m Jewish and I’d still call a catholic priest “Father.” It’s simply… polite.
Also, I agree that Typh should have a boyfriend, because oh man he is GORGEOUS. And he just spent the evening drinking with some friends who understand what it’s like to have one’s body twisted and reshaped. Typh’s desire for men is not in dispute; it’s Typh’s body issues that are holding him back. So… here’s hoping.
Can I use this opportunity to again say how amazingly great the artist Shipeng Lee is and how much better he’s gotten from the start of his run (when he was merely excellent) to now (when he’s simply outstanding) since he’s gotten increasingly familiar with the characters over time?
I highly recommend the most recent episode of The Blacklist. The Djinn’s situation has definite parallels to Typhan-Knee’s, although the reasons for those situations are quite different.
Putting aside their reactions to their situations, I still think that both of them are entitled to decide what pronouns they will encourage others to use when referring to them.
Actually, I think that all persons whose biology has never matched their gender identity should have the same right.
Hmmm, still not quite accurate. *strikes through an extraneous clause in the above paragraph*. And the only reason it’s not an issue for most of those whose identity and biology match is that most people are already using the pronouns they want to be used…
This whole issue with “strategically concealed nudity” strikes me as odd. Isn’t that what clothing does, anyway? Including pink and blue underwear smears?
I’m not overly concerned about the “his” vs. “hers” pronoun as far as Peonie’s use from any perspective except that it’s notable. Has Peonie ever referred to Tiff/Typh using anything but a feminine pronoun before?
Even though we don’t see him personally going to every character telling them what he wants to be called from now on, word presumably got around as everyone from then on has used the correct pronunciation of his name instead of the Southern dialect version (= Tiffany).
The pronouns have never specifically been broached ‘on screen’ but all of those have switched since then too. Before then he didn’t really care about the names and pronouns but presumably that may have had a lot to do with for a long time thinking it was temporary. Which was reasonable as almost everyone else in the seemingly same situation has been switched back easily.
Two exceptions, one who doesn’t want to and the other we’re yet to hear their opinion on the matter because they haven’t been seen for a while. They’ll be back one day though and I guess we’ll hear their opinion on the matter soon enough.
@50srefugee Typhan-Knee is a gay man, so getting a boyfriend wouldn’t change his identity, he already accepted he likes men.
Plus, any man that dates him would have to accept his gender identity.
As for your issues with pronouns, well it’s not about you respectfully. It’s about Peonie being a good friend and accepting Typhan-Knee’s gender identity.
And ultimately, Typhan-Knee is the one that gets to decide what pronaouns he prefers.
Here’s the thing. Any many who dates Typh might think they’re OK with it and at the end of the day, may actually be OK with it but also, there’s a chance that if they’re confronted with the real possibility of Typh being able to change back, they may actually turn out not to be. I mean, they may be, but they may also not be. I imagine there’s a good chance that whole dilemma could be looked at in the future one day.
Also, another dilemma that comes up with this kind of fiction is with the character themselves. Two major factors that make up our identity are how we see ourselves and how others see us. If Typh is able to change back, a major question it would make for Typh to ask himself is about whether he should do so or not. He’s not the same person he used to be (and no, I’m not just talking about the obvious) and how people will react to him afterwards will change. They’ll try not too but human nature can’t be helped.
There’s also the fact that if enough time passes, he might think returning to how he was may have faded too much into the past for him to even distinctly remember why he wants to go back there. Regardless of how things pan out, I think there’s a good chance they’ll look at all of this, it won’t just be one page out of the blue where Typh sees a button that can change him back and the next page is him pushing it, a big puff of smoke or whatever and now he’s how he used to be. There’ll be some time where he at least *thinks* about it before doing it. Or maybe even not.
Not going to go on too much more about this, because comic. But.
@Jake: ” Typhan-Knee is a gay man, so getting a boyfriend wouldn’t change his identity, he already accepted he likes men.”
Our positions differ in that by my lights, a gay man having a male lover is not the same as a woman having a husband. Not even close, especially in a world like Typh’s, where reproduction is still considered a species survival necessity, and thereby a good and proper thing.
“Any man that dates [Typh] would have to accept his gender identity. ”
Key phrase: “any man that dates Typh”. That’s going to severely limit her dating pool. There are plenty of attractive, marriageable women available, why would anyone pick a mate who makes such a demand? Quick roll in the hay, maybe. But marriage? hahahahaha.
“Ultimately, Typhan-Knee is the one that gets to decide what pronouns he prefers.” I guess–but literally everyone else in the world gets to decide which pronouns they will use. Unless she threatens to kill those who disagree, but again, that will even more strongly limit the pool of those willing to have any dealings at all with her.
===
Side issue: A “right”, as the American founders understood the term, is an action you can take or a state of being you can aspire to without asking anyone’s permission or approval. Claiming that you have a “right” to force other people to give you stuff or make concessions to you is tyranny, slavery. [Can’t find the post that that triggered this clarification on my part, so not directed straight at you, Jake. ]
===
I’ll say this again: The story I am hoping for is one where Typh comes to a new, better understanding of what being a woman means. (Better than being a weak, easily raped servant, anyway.)
I acknowledge that there are signs that this is not the story that Scott wishes to tell. I am not so interested in one where Typh redefines what being a woman is for everyone else.
I am super not remotely interested in even pretending to go along with a tiny minority of folk in my actual reality redefining core concepts and words to meet their demands.
If this makes me unfit to be a fan of this comic, wherever it goes, so be it. If we are not willing to make painful sacrifices for our beliefs, then we have none.
@rphb: There’s a mode of thinking, popular in all ages but especially on the ascendency these days, being spread by the academy, the press, and our political leaders, called “wishing makes it so”.
Here’s the thing though, unlike our world there’s both instant changes and/or involuntary ones. It still seems like there’s a good chance that Typh would hit that magic button or equivalent to be restored to pre-transformation state immediately.
I’m inclined to think as time goes on (it must at least be a year if not more since it happened), that’s going to decline somewhat over time (both speed of hitting that button once available and percentage chance of hitting it at all). However, my impression is that Typh is currently undergoing a period of trying to reassert what he can of his former physical manhood.
Reason being, I mean I’m guessing it rises and falls over time but most recently, after failing to get it physically reversed; after being rebuffed (double entendre not intended) so severely by just dressing in a more masculine fashion has led to a period of his taking what he can get for now. It’s no big deal for everyone to go along with it.
Whichever way he jumps in the end will be a long way off, I just hope they show him spending time thinking about it before doing it. Assuming he – well then at that point it will probably be she if she ends up declining – does at all.
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“His” bed.
Le sigh.
“I can totally see why Peonie likes you.”
Just remember, Tiff, you’d be catching not pitching.
Not that it wouldn’t do you good.
===
What, no chamber pot? Not even a wastebasket?
@Scott:
Should Typh’s line in the third frame be “No hitting on me now?”
I’m thinking that “Typh means that literally” refers to her being able to see that Peonie’s lover’s equipment is scaled to her own.
And in her drunkenness, Typh assumes his happiness is aimed at her. (Probably is, physically.)
(Well, and I’m sure he’s thinking “Threesome!” because what randy male wouldn’t be?)
===
By the way, I’m starting to like the crude modesty garments. It’s plain that they were added under protest, not part of the intended art.
Well, that’s accurate though isn’t it? Once Typh decided on how he wanted to be called (after nearly skewering the king – the safety feature on that sword is literally priceless), everyone turned on a dime (most noticeably the king who went from calling him Tiffany in once sentence to Typhan-Knee the next) and absolutely everyone followed suit. After all, like he said, if he can’t even dress too masculine less the curse demolishes his clothers, he’ll take what he can get.
Generally everyone in this world seems to have been a lot more chill about it than our world would be.
Even his brother, who seems to have been the only one seemingly being derogatory about Typh’s situation was only doing so because despite being a man mountain that was much taller, bigger and presumably stronger was still no less terrified of Typh and was just trying to gain some kind of advantage in a fight, he cut it all out when the danger was past.
Aargh, I just realized: Typh’s talking about the alcohol hitting her, right?
I took the ‘literally’ to mean as someone also attracted to men, Typh can also potentially see it from the same point of view as Peonie. The Oh? … Oh! from Phi is where I thought the light bulb went off in Phi’s head about Typh’s orientation went off. Though to be honest, who knows what people thought beforehand.
You would have gotten the page as originally intended via email anyway, right?
About the hitting … yes.
someone be nice and hold her hair
Now I’m suddenly for the first time realising that maybe Typh is drawing a correlation between the size of Phi’s nose and … something else. Maybe that’s actually what Phi was realising. Medical studies have probably already shown that it’s not true though I don’t know what medical research is like this side of the dimension jump though.
Shan:
I’m militant on the point that pronoun gender attaches to anatomical, physical reality.
This accommodates the vast majority of people who don’t know Typh’s situation. The connection between gender and sex is deep and strong for languages that recognize it. It is almost always unwise to fray the moorings of language without
Then there’s that whole “physical reality” trumping “wishing makes it so” thing, which is my main beef.
In story terms, the spell itself demands that Typh accept her femininity to some degree, as we have seen. She she should at least tolerate correctly gendered pronouns.
Ahem. “unwise to fray the moorings of language without cause.”
===
I’ll be surprised if Phi’s nose has anything to do with it. Typh’s just pointing at his face.
Phi’s build is extravagantly masculine, regardless of what’s between his legs–but it’s consistent with what we know of both Peonie and Typh that they would find a well-endowed male attractive.
I don’t really care either way. Our world rules don’t necessarily apply to the world of Exiern.
However, Typh’s pretty famous so a lot of people would know. Even if they didn’t, in the past Typh hasn’t cared if they referred to him as “she, her” and “Tiffany”. Now he’s trying to assert himself to make a point even if he’s physically stuck this way for the rest of his life, he’d just correct those people who didn’t know.
This world seems pretty chill though. No-one in the general public (I’m leaving the Church of Rem out of this for now) seems to have been seen caring about Sister Teresa’s past, she’s even ended up queen and about the only reaction from the general populace seems to have been “Party? Party! Party!!!” and presumably questions about whether there’ll be cake and what kind. The king’s been super open minded in terms of both being engaged to Typh and then Teresa in short order.
Anyway, none of that applies to the people in the room because they all know Typh and his past. I usually dodge the subject entirely by usually avoiding using pronouns at all. Anatomical physical reality leads to a more complicated morass than a lot of people realise.
Then throw what’s happened in Dark Reflections into the mix and things get even more complicated.
It’s long been a popular belief that if certain visible body parts are large, then certain other unseen parts (depending on whether its the underpants version or not) must also follow in scale.
Scott, if you’re out there could we please have an adjudication on what you meant in this case?
@50sRefugee: Don’t see why you’re sighing, it’s been already established that Typhan-Knee still identifies as a man, so Peonie is simply using the proper pronouns to respect Typhan-Knee’s gender identity.
@50srefugees : Also, Typhan-Knee can still pitch. Or have you never heard of pegging?
Jake, I’m sighing because I’m militant about the idea that pronoun gender attaches to physical reality, that is, to other people’s perceptions of a person. Go ahead, show Typh’s picture to anyone, and ask; they’ll automatically say, “Yup, she’s a girl.”
I know I’m in the minority here, and am unlikely to convince anyone. Too bad. Physical reality rules.
Yes, I know what pegging is. (I wish that people would stop assuming that I hold my opinions because I just don’t know any better.) But again, I was speaking in terms of anatomical reality, not artificial toys.
It’s not clear that Phi would accept a pegging, I wouldn’t either, except in occasional play after prior straight sex.
I neither want Typh to “defeat” the spell, or the spell to defeat her.)
Again, probably not going to convince anyone here. And again, too bad.
That’s enough of that for now.
I really can’t agree about that being a workable test. Even among the straight non transgender population, the stereotypically manliest looking of women are going to overlap with the most feminine looking of men in that photo test.
By my reckoning, Typh was a gay man before the change and identifies as one despite the transformation after one. It helps that he’s had a continuity of memory and personality to maintain his sense of self, the biggest panic he’s had during the entire course of the story was when he momentarily forgot who he was.
More confusingly, the evidence of Typh’s Dark Reflection counterpart is pointing towards straight (though can’t rule out bi yet) and male before the change but now female and straight (though again can’t rule out bi yet) afterwards as she’s been Hauserised (of Quaidified if you like) a la 1990s Total Recall.
She’s had her brain totally scrubbed and her pre-change memories replaced with a copy of American Beauty. Which is why she desperately wants to bang Faden’s brains out. It also explains why she’s now so affably, murderously evil. Pre-change Typh here is currently for all intents and purposes, deleted or even dead right now. He may even be lost for all time for all we know now.
Even if pre-change Typh is potentially retrievable, she may have no interest in doing so because it’s like hearing about another person that she’s not.
I hope at least some of these implications are taken into account if they ever cross over. At least it’s not on the scale of Cura Te Ipsum’s massive multiverse and the resulting chaos *that* brings when everyone meets.
Can’t really feel sorry for the Princess here about the drawer if she was using Tiff’s bed, that was just rude.
Typh IS referring to the alcohol reaching critical mass, and that even censorship underwear can’t block EVERY angle… 😉
Well, we need all the facts first. On the one hand Peonie is using Typh’s bed. On the other hand, Typh did smash up a lot of furniture in that room beforehand. What’s the current functional status of Peonie’s bed?
Shan, it may well be that the “stereotypically manliest looking of women are going to overlap with the most feminine looking of men”, but language, especially down on the nuts and bolts level of pronouns, has got to be for the convenience of the vast majority of speakers in the vast majority of circumstances.
The bell curve tails must not wag the hump.
Again, do not assume my position arises from ignorance. This is far from a new conversation for me (not even here); indeed, there was a time when I’d’ve more or less agreed with you. But experience and study has convinced me of my current position.
Again, not the point. I just wanted to sigh over a minor annoyance, and thought everyone here knew I was perverted in my desire for the default recognition of anatomical reality.
I really don’t care past having to go and make the smallest of tweaks to a review I’ve written. From experience, anatomy and biology’s a funny business.
Anyway, moving one of the most important issues, if not the most important issue of the entire series, when is Typh getting a boyfriend? You can’t accuse them of needlessly rushing the issue. Even Typh’s Dark Reflection alternate version has had more success in his short time with us before being vaporized (he got to willingly kiss Peonie twice. Yes Faden was in there butit still counts). In ten plus Earth years, Typh’s willingly kissed Denver once and half points off for the first time because Typh was taken by surprise and immediately threw Denver into a tree. That’s literally been the sum total of all relationship encounters so far.
Even Dark Tiffany is not that far behind given that in the short time we’ve seen her, she’s willingly kissed Alicia. OK, that was for the express purpose of sucking the soul out of her body but still …
Concur, strongly, that I want Typh, as a girl, to have a boyfriend.
I believe it’s on the horizon though one of the definitions of a horizon is an imaginary line where the earth and sky seem to meet and which moves away from you as you approach it.
I’d settle for Exiern’s equivalent of the Sponge episode on Seinfeld, where Typh meets a successive number of prospective individuals and has to decide whether any of them are worth losing the Unicorn over. It might turn out to be the most successful abstinence method ever.
The story will be plotted well in advance so the outcome will probably be decided by the time we see the start of it but we can still have fun yelling from the comments section as each individual appears “HE’S NOT WORTHY!”
If it happens, I want it to be a real choice, not a series of gags. And yes, I want Typh to decide that, as wonderful as the unicorn is, and as sad as she’ll be to lose her, love is worth it.
(I’m guessing Denver, because dragon, but the choice is Typh’s. And Denver may have made a choice of his own that he prefers full dragonhood over Typh. She’s not the only one who gets to choose.)
But yeah: If it happens, I don’t want it to be a casual fling. I want Typh to mean it.
Well, the ‘series of gags’ would lead up to the real choice is one of the possibilities I had in mind. We’ve had no end of war, invasion, assassination attempts, kidnappings and the like. A bit of romantic comedy would make a nice change. Something that looked like some sort of conspiracy as everyone’s sneaking about but turned out to be everyone trying to fix up Typh on a date wouldn’t go astray if done well. I especially wouldn’t mind seeing the kingdom’s version of speed dating.
After all, we’ve already had the king and the head of the Theatre.
Peonie and Phi
Denver and Teresa is heavily implied (OH WE ALL KNOW THEY TOTALLY DID IT!)
Typh’s brother and Diana
Even Old Mac must have had somebody once (well it’s the simplest explanation as he has a granddaughter).
Typh’s pretty much the only one of the major characters who’s missed out so far. We’ve kind of been there and done that with Denver though. Plus he’s been gone a long time. Maybe someone new?
Typh’s pretty famous so there’s potential for some drama if it’s someone who knows Typh’s history and says they’re OK with it (and maybe even really believes it) but then isn’t so sure as Decision Day approaches if there comes a time where it at least seems Typh has found a way to change back.
My feeling is that the choice of a romantic partner, maybe even a husband, would mark a much bigger change for Typh than for most of us. For everyone you’ve mentioned, it may have been a dalliance, it may have been for life, but it was in the natural order of things.
For Typh, it would signal a major shift in her self-identity.
Yeah, took me a second to work out what Peonie meant by Typh being able to see why Peonie liked him literally. Pretty sure it’s not Phi understanding that Typh finds him attractive as well but that his manhood is on display and of good proportion.
On the discussion of Typh’s body and gender. Scott seems to be steering this story towards showing Typh’s strong desire to be male again. Don’t get me wrong, for fiction and story purpose I want Typh to remain female and suspect there will be no change back to male (permanently at least) because that would likely end the story.
However there is a difference between sexual preference and sexual identity and I’d no more expect someone in reality who identifies as their opposite sex to not ask to be treated and referred to as that sex and even seek to change to that sex, than I’d expect Typh who Scott has clearly shown to identify as his original male gender.
Typh certainly had some original issues about discrimination against women and/or the female body but he’s beyond that now and the drive to be a man again comes from a true part of himself that identifies as that gender.
While I can understand making it easy for the audience to interpret, the early days consisted of Peonie tentatively referring to Typh as “her” and “she” with it getting noticed by the audience. Now the audience notices Typh getting referred to as “he” and “him” as Typh has requested, which works well for what Scott is trying to tell in this story arc.
Remember kids, Typhan-Knee prefers the company of men.
@ charles81
If I remember the comments correctly, are you the person who has all the original pages from the beginning before they got rewritten and redrawn? If so, is it possible to get a copy?
@ TotallyAnon
Typh and Peonie totally have this older sister/younger sister thing going on. More specifically, Typh prefers the company of men for certain things.
Though for a barbarian, Typh wasn’t ruthlessly pragmatic enough. I mean dude, you could have been queen. That’s just one small step from running the joint. Also, if history’s to be believed, a lot of queens were effectively in charge anyway in all but name.
Princess or not it is bad form to screw on your room mates bed.
@Bad taiming: Well, if your roomate hacks your bed to ribbons with her sword….
I do agree about the sister thing. Oddly, though, which one is the older seems to be somewhat fluid.
@ 50srefugee
I went back and read the last couple of months of pages and realised we’ve had the exact same discussion that we did in this comment section more or less. I made much better posts about Typh and the pronoun game then though.
As far as the gender specific pronouns go… Typh is both a deadly and dangerous person when provoked, as well as a loyal friend worthy of respect. And living in a castle where the people try to be courteous. It costs them nothing address Typh by the pronouns that Typh wishes to be addressed by. It’s like calling someone “Doctor” because they have a P.h.D, or calling a priest “Father.” I’m Jewish and I’d still call a catholic priest “Father.” It’s simply… polite.
Also, I agree that Typh should have a boyfriend, because oh man he is GORGEOUS. And he just spent the evening drinking with some friends who understand what it’s like to have one’s body twisted and reshaped. Typh’s desire for men is not in dispute; it’s Typh’s body issues that are holding him back. So… here’s hoping.
Can I use this opportunity to again say how amazingly great the artist Shipeng Lee is and how much better he’s gotten from the start of his run (when he was merely excellent) to now (when he’s simply outstanding) since he’s gotten increasingly familiar with the characters over time?
Sooo… You two made a wet sticky, fragrant mess on Typh’s bed, she made a wet sticky, fragrant mess on some of your laundry?
Sounds fair to me.
Blacklist Spoiler Alert!!!!!!
@ 50srefugee:
I highly recommend the most recent episode of The Blacklist. The Djinn’s situation has definite parallels to Typhan-Knee’s, although the reasons for those situations are quite different.
Putting aside their reactions to their situations, I still think that both of them are entitled to decide what pronouns they will encourage others to use when referring to them.
Actually, I think that all persons whose biology has never matched their gender identity should have the same right.
Hmmm, still not quite accurate. *strikes through an extraneous clause in the above paragraph*. And the only reason it’s not an issue for most of those whose identity and biology match is that most people are already using the pronouns they want to be used…
Hmm, the strike through didn’t work. Here’s what the edited sentence would look like:
“Actually, I think that all persons should have the same right.”
Those pink and blue underwear blobs are annoying.
This whole issue with “strategically concealed nudity” strikes me as odd. Isn’t that what clothing does, anyway? Including pink and blue underwear smears?
I’m not overly concerned about the “his” vs. “hers” pronoun as far as Peonie’s use from any perspective except that it’s notable. Has Peonie ever referred to Tiff/Typh using anything but a feminine pronoun before?
Basically, Typh made it clear about his name from this page, especially due to what happened in the two pages beforehand.
http://www.exiern.com/2015/01/20/words/
Even though we don’t see him personally going to every character telling them what he wants to be called from now on, word presumably got around as everyone from then on has used the correct pronunciation of his name instead of the Southern dialect version (= Tiffany).
The pronouns have never specifically been broached ‘on screen’ but all of those have switched since then too. Before then he didn’t really care about the names and pronouns but presumably that may have had a lot to do with for a long time thinking it was temporary. Which was reasonable as almost everyone else in the seemingly same situation has been switched back easily.
Two exceptions, one who doesn’t want to and the other we’re yet to hear their opinion on the matter because they haven’t been seen for a while. They’ll be back one day though and I guess we’ll hear their opinion on the matter soon enough.
@50srefugee Typhan-Knee is a gay man, so getting a boyfriend wouldn’t change his identity, he already accepted he likes men.
Plus, any man that dates him would have to accept his gender identity.
As for your issues with pronouns, well it’s not about you respectfully. It’s about Peonie being a good friend and accepting Typhan-Knee’s gender identity.
And ultimately, Typhan-Knee is the one that gets to decide what pronaouns he prefers.
@ Jake
Here’s the thing. Any many who dates Typh might think they’re OK with it and at the end of the day, may actually be OK with it but also, there’s a chance that if they’re confronted with the real possibility of Typh being able to change back, they may actually turn out not to be. I mean, they may be, but they may also not be. I imagine there’s a good chance that whole dilemma could be looked at in the future one day.
Also, another dilemma that comes up with this kind of fiction is with the character themselves. Two major factors that make up our identity are how we see ourselves and how others see us. If Typh is able to change back, a major question it would make for Typh to ask himself is about whether he should do so or not. He’s not the same person he used to be (and no, I’m not just talking about the obvious) and how people will react to him afterwards will change. They’ll try not too but human nature can’t be helped.
There’s also the fact that if enough time passes, he might think returning to how he was may have faded too much into the past for him to even distinctly remember why he wants to go back there. Regardless of how things pan out, I think there’s a good chance they’ll look at all of this, it won’t just be one page out of the blue where Typh sees a button that can change him back and the next page is him pushing it, a big puff of smoke or whatever and now he’s how he used to be. There’ll be some time where he at least *thinks* about it before doing it. Or maybe even not.
*sigh*
Not going to go on too much more about this, because comic. But.
@Jake: ” Typhan-Knee is a gay man, so getting a boyfriend wouldn’t change his identity, he already accepted he likes men.”
Our positions differ in that by my lights, a gay man having a male lover is not the same as a woman having a husband. Not even close, especially in a world like Typh’s, where reproduction is still considered a species survival necessity, and thereby a good and proper thing.
“Any man that dates [Typh] would have to accept his gender identity. ”
Key phrase: “any man that dates Typh”. That’s going to severely limit her dating pool. There are plenty of attractive, marriageable women available, why would anyone pick a mate who makes such a demand? Quick roll in the hay, maybe. But marriage? hahahahaha.
“Ultimately, Typhan-Knee is the one that gets to decide what pronouns he prefers.” I guess–but literally everyone else in the world gets to decide which pronouns they will use. Unless she threatens to kill those who disagree, but again, that will even more strongly limit the pool of those willing to have any dealings at all with her.
===
Side issue: A “right”, as the American founders understood the term, is an action you can take or a state of being you can aspire to without asking anyone’s permission or approval. Claiming that you have a “right” to force other people to give you stuff or make concessions to you is tyranny, slavery. [Can’t find the post that that triggered this clarification on my part, so not directed straight at you, Jake. ]
===
I’ll say this again: The story I am hoping for is one where Typh comes to a new, better understanding of what being a woman means. (Better than being a weak, easily raped servant, anyway.)
I acknowledge that there are signs that this is not the story that Scott wishes to tell. I am not so interested in one where Typh redefines what being a woman is for everyone else.
I am super not remotely interested in even pretending to go along with a tiny minority of folk in my actual reality redefining core concepts and words to meet their demands.
If this makes me unfit to be a fan of this comic, wherever it goes, so be it. If we are not willing to make painful sacrifices for our beliefs, then we have none.
I think what I have planned will be found satisfactory. 🙂
I never thought anything else, Scott; there’s a long gap between what I would find unsatisfactory and even my slightly diminished hopes.
I don’t get why phony uses masculine pronoun about Tiffany, she is quite obviously not a man.
@rphb: There’s a mode of thinking, popular in all ages but especially on the ascendency these days, being spread by the academy, the press, and our political leaders, called “wishing makes it so”.
It rarely works out well. Or works, period.
Granted, it’s an attempt to be polite and supportive. Best intentions and all.
Here’s the thing though, unlike our world there’s both instant changes and/or involuntary ones. It still seems like there’s a good chance that Typh would hit that magic button or equivalent to be restored to pre-transformation state immediately.
I’m inclined to think as time goes on (it must at least be a year if not more since it happened), that’s going to decline somewhat over time (both speed of hitting that button once available and percentage chance of hitting it at all). However, my impression is that Typh is currently undergoing a period of trying to reassert what he can of his former physical manhood.
Reason being, I mean I’m guessing it rises and falls over time but most recently, after failing to get it physically reversed; after being rebuffed (double entendre not intended) so severely by just dressing in a more masculine fashion has led to a period of his taking what he can get for now. It’s no big deal for everyone to go along with it.
Whichever way he jumps in the end will be a long way off, I just hope they show him spending time thinking about it before doing it. Assuming he – well then at that point it will probably be she if she ends up declining – does at all.
Since we’ve switch ad providers I have uploaded a new version of this page as I originally intended to post it.
@50srefuge:
It’s not a “Tiny Minority” in the real world. Also, anyone that wouldn’t use Typhan-Knee’s preferred pronouns would be a bigot anyway.
Especially, since so far everyone else has had no problem accommodating him and being supportive.