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Starting February 1st ALL new Exiern pages will post ONLY to Exiern.com and Our Patreon. Please read and support us there!
Swords, Sorcery, And Then Some!
Howdy, New Readers! Thanks for reading Exiern!
Written by Scott T. Hicken with art by Antipus, the comic updates Mondays. Please check out the Archive to enjoy the earlier adventures of Typh and Peonie!
Exiern contains mature themes and is best for readers 18+.
Ah thank god! It is all a misunderstanding! The look on Theresa’s face that panel is so not one of someone plotting something devious in regards to Peonie.
At this point it is obvious that really is Isabel. After all, if Teresa wanted everyone to fool everyone, she would have put Isabel somewhere everyone could see her, instead she’s left in Peonie’s room.
On the other hand, that also means Teresa didn’t want to publicly humiliate Isabel, so yeah, there’s probably more too it.
@TheCollector: The Queen just looks tired, that doesn’t mean it’s a misunderstanding.
Jake, I think it’s clear now that that the black haired maid is indeed Isabel in disguise. She’s doing a great job acting like a fluff headed cleaning maid, isn’t she?
Actually, I’m pretty relieved to be wrong. I’m still not ready to conclude Theresa is evil or traitorous; I think she really did act in defense of the realm and her King and Princess.
I think that the statue is Isabel and the humming is to keep her alive so that the spell can be reversed. As to the real reason for that action, I think we’re about to find out.
@50sRefuge: Not really if you are talking about the middle one, that’s the Maid sisters mother going by her body type, it matches her previous. The only thing that’s clear is that none of the maidstory are Isabel.
Otherwise Peonie would have mentioned it, obviously.
@50srefuge: But going back to the maids, they have all appeared before and Peonie knows them, none of them are Isabel.
It wouldn’t make sense going with their previous appearances. I think there’s more to what we are seeing, but none of the maids are involved, otherwise they wouldn’t have been asked to leave the room.
My current assumptions:
Theresa is not only exhausted, but grieving.
Theresa is not evil. Neither is Olivia.
The kingdom and the royal family are indeed under attack. I’m thinking Faden, or someone in his class.
Theresa has no great love for the church–but she can’t let them know how much she actually opposes them.
Theresa’s humming protects Urtica somehow. It has something to do with deflecting speculation in the court away from the plan she and Urtica have put in place. Plot all you want, gossip all you want, just…happen not to think of what is really going on.
So effective is her spell, it has even spilled over into this forum. 🙂
Speaking of the Maid Mother and Sisters, it seems they too think Isabel was turned to stone for being a “doubter of rem”. Doesn’t mean it’s true, but it does mean it’s what has been spread around.
@Jake: I confess, I was joshing you a bit there. I am now convinced the maids are uninvolved.
The little blonde, by the way, doesn’t have much tact because she’s a thoughtless teen. And she’s a maid who cleans up after her betters. She doesn’t know much, but thinks she’s seen everything.
Still, you’d think she’d notice Peonie tearing up over seeing her friend like that. At least the mom seemed to notice.
I do find it interesting that, if it really is Isabel, it seems Teresa made a sure to tell the maids to keep Isabel clean. Not sure what to make of that. Would it mean that she cares or is it to humiliate her?
I too was struck by the cleaning; given my assumptions listed above, I take it this is a sign of respect.
Having helped raise my sister’s two attractive teen girls, including one with a personality very like the blonde’s, I can attest that even without a humming spell, they can be remarkably blinkered to the feelings of others.
Respect would also explain why Isabel is in a private room and not in a public place, like the courtyard. I mean, Teresa could have made this punishment worse if she wanted, but didn’t.
Hopefully the next update will clear things up. Though i can also see the next update being Peonie yelling at Teresa.
Theresa is so tired, she can barely stand. I’d swear even her boobs are sagging.
Peony, everyone knows you’re upset and angry over how you’ve been treated and what’s been done to Isabel. How about you not waste another moment acting like a spoiled child, and just listen, OK? You would do well to emulate not only your father’s strength, but his patience and restraint.
Something very bad is going on, something that’s affecting not only Urtica’s realm, but also the territories of folk like the usually friendly War’Togs. Everything Peonie has seen since her return has been cloaked for public consumption, I’m guessing at least partly by Theresa’s humming, which did seem to affect you much. Theresa is about to tell you what cannot be publicly revealed.
I’ll be concerned if Theresa doesn’t stop humming once the door closes on the maids, since I think it’s part of the cloak for the commons, but I’ll wait to hear the explanation.
But look at Theresa’s expression in the second frame here:
/2014/10/14/he-means-it/
She and the King are smiling and relaxed in response to Peonie’s royal claim, and she seems to support the King’s agreement with his daughter. Compare their expressions when talking to the would be conspirators a strip or two later.
===
By the way, from what Urtica says to Tiff here:
/2015/01/20/words/
He’s likely to arrive to support Theresa in a few moments. He’s promised explanations to his daughter, and apparently means to give them. I’m eager to see.
===
I actually feel sorry for Theresa. I expect her to collapse as soon as Urtica comes in.
I don’t know, her anger at seeing her friend tunedited to stone is arguably justified and don’t think she’s spoiled for being upset. Especially with the reason Olivia gave (Which might not be the truth, but it’s what Peonie has been told). Now, her earlier outburst about the wedding? That I’ll agree.
Her sorrow is justified. But her anger over the initial slights at her return has been acknowledged. She has been promised explanations by her Father, under an oath she has said he will not break.
Now, she needs to listen. And justified or not, her Father sets a fine example of watching and listening until he knows the facts she’d do well to follow.
For instance, there’s this recent instance of Urtica not jumping to conclusions:
2015/01/13/trashing-the-camp/
That’s the kind of restraint I want Peonie to learn. Even Tiff does better than she.
Except at the moment she’s probably under the impression that it’s a completely different matter. I mean, she was not told this is part of the aforementioned explanations.
At the moment, all she knows is that her friend was turned to stone for what she seems to consider petty reasons. It might not be the real reason, but it’s what she’s been told.
I agree she should show some restraint, but being angry at this moment seems understandable.
This probably would have gone better if the King’s letter had gotten to her before she and Typhan returned.
“She was told” IN PUBLIC, I think is the necessary qualifier there. She’s been specifically told “here are things that [they] will have to fill [her] in on, but others must not know”. Isabel was Olivia’s first example.
Everything we’ve seen and been told so far is for public consumption only–and of course for the enemies of the crown, who are likely adept at using gossipy maids as unwitting information channels.
That kinda went out the window when she saw Isabel’s current state though.
The way these events played out, Peonie would think that “Isabel being turned to stone” was what she needed to be filled in on.
Olivia was probably going to tell her the real circumstances, but she clearly had to change what she was going to say when she saw the maids in the room.
@Jake: nod-nod
“Olivia was probably going to tell her the real circumstances, but she clearly had to change what she was going to say when she saw the maids in the room.”
This especially. It would explain her somewhat startled expression as she entered the room.
I would like to believe that Peonie was quick enough on the uptake to be playing a role for the maids herself–but I’ll be very surprised if she is.
@Tiffanyhm, I don’t want to see a church “wiped out”, especially when it seems to serve the purpose of keeping magical folk from going rogue. I think they need to be taken down more than a couple of notches, perhaps allowing other magic using groups to form.
I’m seeing some parallels here with the US right to arms movements. I don’t want to see magic (here playing the role of firearms) to be outlawed or suppressed; that’s very dangerous–especially if people are born with the talent. ((BURN THE WITCH!”)
But to have the equivalent of the NRA being the sole voice for magic users, and to have it in bed (literally, now) with the Crown? No no no. No, big time no. Better to have numerous competing schools.
Theresa is an excellent example of why there must be options. State monopolies on force, or on any resource (see “hydraulic empires”) rarely work well.
@Guesticus
Thank you! I was wondering if I was the only one who noticed that!
Seriously, I mean… Last time we met Mackensie, I saw her as the hyped, childish, 12-14 years old little sister of the more “young adult” other maid.
But now, she looks about the same age as her sister, and on the previous page, her boobs look bigger than PEONIE’S!!!
Gosh! Her figure actually reminds me of an entertainer I met a few years ago. And let me tell you, the lady was big!
50s: Any kind of religious group given any kind of political power or authority needs to be wiped from the face of the Earth. Frankly I don’t even think the US should have a diplomat in the Vatican your either a Church or a government not both.
Tiffanyhm, not wiped out, but they do need the tips of their fingers chopped off to remind them not to overreach. Remember, though, that all too often it is not the church that seeks power; rather, it is the government that tries to co-opt the church’s power.
There’s a major exception to this, where the scriptures directly call for temporal power as well as spiritual guidance, with horrific results, but that exceeds the scope of these comments.
nope sorry religious organizations should never get involved in temporal power or politics under any circumstance even in a fantasy setting, it should be a civil authority that has some authority over magic users, not a religious organization.
Religions can do a lot of good but any time they are given any power or authority they become wholly evil there is no religion that has ever had political power that has not abused it, the church of rem seems to be one of the more abusive and needs to be reduced heavily, if she turns someone to stone just for blasphemy then yeah..
@Tiffanyhm Question is how could you completly seperate the political aspects from the relgious ones? Religion by its very nature deals with ethics, and politics is a way to balance the various needs of people INCLUDING ethics. Even if all a church did was SAY something was unethical it has an enourmous impact. That is what OFTEN makes it difficult to seperate chruch and state, it is because laws passed are often based on the religous and/spiritual beliefs of those in power. I am NOT saying you do not have a point I am just saying it is, as history shows, a tricky problem to solve.
then the church shouldn’t say ANYTHING that has any bearing on policy. I’m of the mind of Franklin. “Between light houses and churches light houses are more useful. NO religion should have tax exempt status, and a church that opposes gay/lesbian marriage and women in power should be labeled as a hate group. I have NO sympathy for most religions that are bigoted.
@Tifffanyhm Saying “Though Shall Not Kill” is saying something that has a bearing on policy, in that it states murder is wrong and should not be legal. Are you saying they shouldn’t say that? I know that is not what you are going for I am just trying to illustrate the complexites of the issue.
It is correct that State and church should not mix. Tiffanyhym, however, reverses the order of causation when speaking of them becoming mixed. The most destructive mixes of church and State have come from the State, often in the form of an Empire, using a religion as glue to hold the imperial hierarchy together. In the process the imperial State almost always coarsens and twists religion, using force against “heretics”, to allow church doctrines to justify the engrossment of the State.
This was true with both Christianity and Islam. The vast majority of Christians in the US, whatever they believe about legislation or moral judgement matters have no truck with the idea of forcing their religion on anyone. They simply don’t want other belief systems, including atheism, forced into their own lives and communities.
Once we got rid of the captured Church connection with Empire in 1648, Christianity began a distinct process of improvement. Unfortunately, even with the recent call for reform by Al Sisi in Egypt, Islam has yet to see its Westphalian moment.
You can not separate Church from State, majority of everything is because of religion, and that includes the vast majority of all the laws and rules and crap
Tom Religious views have NO place in policy and should have none in descision making. Laws need to be based on logic, they need to be able to be argued on grounds and on the constitution. You cannot do that with laws based on religious grounds.
Frankly my patience with religion is next to non existent too many religions ban women from positions of power to my mind that is discriminatory and such groups SHOULD NOT BE ABLE TO exist within the United States as that violates our anti discrimination laws. Very seldom has organized religion been good for the world.
@ Tiffanyhm You are right laws should be based on logic and ethics. I am just trying to say that unfortunatly it often is diffcult to pout this into practice. Speaking of ethics banning religion also means DISCRIMANTING against people who are religious EVEN IF they haven’t done anything wrong (Freedom of religion is there for a reason) There is a saying about this, “My right to swing my fist, stops at the next persons nose” What it it means is that you can hold any racist, sexist, views you want SO LONG AS you don’t use those views as an excuse to hurt other people. Speaking of which the way you have been speak has reminded me of a certain incdent in the news that you may or may not have heard of. I am not sure if I should be more specific about said incendent since this discussion is getting political enouugh as it is.
I DO NOT condone violence however I do condone pulling the tax exempt status of any religious oraganization that does not allow women into high offices or accept gays and lesbians, there is after all no right to tax exempt status and I hold any group that discriminates against others in contempt, you can’t change who you are but can change beliefs that are 100% wrong and evil, and not allowing women to be priests bishops rabbis or whatever is indeed 100% evil and people who believe its wrong for women to have such rolls are evil human beings with no redeeming qualities.
That is the William of Okham part of the test, before really taking things apart. Make sure all the cords are tight, then open the box and reseat all the cards.
But first, make sure you haven’t plugged a 60 hz device into a 50 hz circuit (or vice versa).
it’s not government that corrupts religion because by it’s very naturel it is already from the start. they are all based not on fact and reason but baseless unquestionable belief.
there member my not actively seek to convert people but will always force others to live by there baseless beliefs no matter what evidence is shown to prove them wrong.
and you can completely remove religion from government because morality and justice has nothing to do with gods or religion. after all morality comes from empathy towards and understanding of others.
in the end religion does nothing but blind people to reality. allowing believers to treat other mame (genital mutilation), torture (pray the gay away) and kill others with no need to feel bad about it.
On the gov/religion thing, here in exiern they have to mix religion and gov because they have gods and their will in full view and so the Church here should be involved in the gov in some way.
,As for the rest, wow, I am amazed at the amount of prejudice displayed here. Especially by people supposedly worried about stopping prejudice. People have the right to be stupid here, obvious by the amount of stupidity that constantly goes on. If we did not have dealings with the Vatican or any Religious state, we wouldn’t have relations with at least 30 countries, including Britain (as they have a state church that is part of the gov there). The government of the USA is based on the belief in religion and God. You cannot separate the gov. from religion here. There is nothing in the constitution about separation of church and state (look it up if you want). The rights enumerated in the constitution are to have come from God, not man. Rights from man can be taken away by man. Rights from God cannot be taken away by man without tyranny which can be fought. The KKK and communist party can exist here and exclude whoever they want from their organizations and they are breaking no laws. Its their right to be as bigoted and prejudiced as they want to.
So,I’ve been reading this comic for a while, and I stood up for Teresa… It is my belief that I was wrong.
We have not seen Teresa since the gang went North. This is not Teresa, it’s a spellsinger who is using an illusion to pretend to be her… perhaps the Jello Witch? (probably not though) and I believe that it has something to do with the statue.
More specifically, I believe the sungisnger is, in fact, Isabella. Think of the reason that she was “turned to stone.” It was because she needed to be shown the true power of someone who believed in Rem.
So, perhaps… There is something more here. We now have a plot where a statue has been made to cover up that Isabella and Teresa have VOLUNTARILY switch places.
Furthermore, the Wartog had been able to attack the Capitol directly, without being detected beforehand. That sounds like an issue that might have magical reasonings, but I would like to also point out… It postponed the wedding until Peonie was here.
@Brad: Excellent, excellent points. Especially the one about the prejudice on display. Tolerance must always be a two way street. I’m reluctant to discuss the matter here, because it strays from being on-topic for discussing the comic, but you’ve said what I’ve been holding back.
I will add only that as a point of history, the idea that there should be a separation of church and state is quite new–actually making it one of the founding stones of the government is unprecedented. Before the American constitution, the idea of a state religion was “Of course! How else can it possibly be?”
My point about stepping on the Church’s toes, rather than stomping it outright, is first to rein it in when it oversteps, to keep it in check. But second, burning the church out, root and branch, leaves the state unchecked. It’s equally dangerous to make the state itself an object of worship, or to give it control over people’s lives and consciences for purely political reasons.
To bring things back to the comic, I note that the Realm seems to be a constitutional monarchy. I suspect that what we’re seeing here is, in effect, Urtica and Theresa acting in concert to divorce church and state without attempting to destroy the church–which has very real magical powers.
I think the marriage between Urtica and Theresa is an excellent move here, including the wait for the church to bless the wedding. Such marriages are often done in more or less feudal societies to cement relations between states while recognizing the sovereignty of each in their own realm.
And in this case, the traditional husband-wife relationship is an excellent model, with the husband representing the state, with its outward looking political role, and the wife representing the inward looking, personal role. The husband has the lead, but his decisions must take his wife’s needs for a safe, comfortable home as his ultimate motivation, rather than his own continually expanding need for power over others.
Ah, and then there’s Knight Tiffany, a warrior woman, caught on the cusp, beholden to neither male aggression not female homemaking, neither crown nor miter, but choosing to act in defense of both, while being free to walk away if her own autonomy is threatened.
If this is in fact what’s going on in the comic, it’s brilliant, and in my mind, would transcend Tiffany’s personal crisis by casting in it in terms of the common good, rather than her own, barbarian desires.
There is contradiction here, and conflict, with those contradictions and conflict almost fractal as our focus changes from the personal to the political.
I eagerly await enlightenment as to current events.
@naroji: I’m reluctant speculate on exactly who is whom, having pretty much been shot down on my attempt. But I like your keen observation that the War’Tog invasion delayed the wedding until Peonie’s return. I don’t think that’s exactly the reason for the fight, something larger seems to be at play, indicating a general breakdown, but…yeah, that may well have played a part.
Brad even in a magical world religion should never be involved in policy in anyway shape or form to my mind that would restrict magic unnecessarily. The government should be perfectly capable of policing magic users and such by hiring some there should be no such thing as heresey or punishment for it, the fact that Teressa did this lowers my opinion of her dramatically.
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Ooh! The plot thickens!
Ah thank god! It is all a misunderstanding! The look on Theresa’s face that panel is so not one of someone plotting something devious in regards to Peonie.
Theresa is getting tired by the looks of things. singing under her breath must be hard to do constantly.
well now we will get some answers
This was ether done with her concent or its not her. Gee I wonder who the queen has pegged as the new chapoin of Rem .?
What is the best way to hide that someone is not there? Make it appear they died/turned to stone.
From the looks of things I guess the new queen has to maintain a spell for the illusion.
At this point it is obvious that really is Isabel. After all, if Teresa wanted everyone to fool everyone, she would have put Isabel somewhere everyone could see her, instead she’s left in Peonie’s room.
On the other hand, that also means Teresa didn’t want to publicly humiliate Isabel, so yeah, there’s probably more too it.
@TheCollector: The Queen just looks tired, that doesn’t mean it’s a misunderstanding.
I can see Isabel being a spy and being turned into a statue as a cover, but not a “secret warrior” going by how she feels about women and fighting.
But again, that brings up the question of why the statue is somewhere private. Not much of a cover if most people can’t see it.
Peonie is right. This is NOT normal for her castle and home, even as crazy as everything is. Theresa had better have a real good explanation.
Jake, I think it’s clear now that that the black haired maid is indeed Isabel in disguise. She’s doing a great job acting like a fluff headed cleaning maid, isn’t she?
: ) 🙂 🙂
Actually, I’m pretty relieved to be wrong. I’m still not ready to conclude Theresa is evil or traitorous; I think she really did act in defense of the realm and her King and Princess.
I think they need to check the circuitry on Theresa’s pre-amp. She has developed an annoying hum.
Yep, pretty obvious that everyone’s been brainwashed by the false-prophet
I think that the statue is Isabel and the humming is to keep her alive so that the spell can be reversed. As to the real reason for that action, I think we’re about to find out.
@50sRefuge: Not really if you are talking about the middle one, that’s the Maid sisters mother going by her body type, it matches her previous. The only thing that’s clear is that none of the maidstory are Isabel.
Otherwise Peonie would have mentioned it, obviously.
@Francisco: But if that was the case, why do the Maids and Olivia think Teresa did it
@50srefuge: But going back to the maids, they have all appeared before and Peonie knows them, none of them are Isabel.
It wouldn’t make sense going with their previous appearances. I think there’s more to what we are seeing, but none of the maids are involved, otherwise they wouldn’t have been asked to leave the room.
My current assumptions:
Theresa is not only exhausted, but grieving.
Theresa is not evil. Neither is Olivia.
The kingdom and the royal family are indeed under attack. I’m thinking Faden, or someone in his class.
Theresa has no great love for the church–but she can’t let them know how much she actually opposes them.
Theresa’s humming protects Urtica somehow. It has something to do with deflecting speculation in the court away from the plan she and Urtica have put in place. Plot all you want, gossip all you want, just…happen not to think of what is really going on.
So effective is her spell, it has even spilled over into this forum. 🙂
I gotta say though, the blonde maid doesn’t have much in the way of tact. I mean, surely she can see she’s grieving for her friend.
Speaking of the Maid Mother and Sisters, it seems they too think Isabel was turned to stone for being a “doubter of rem”. Doesn’t mean it’s true, but it does mean it’s what has been spread around.
@Jake: I confess, I was joshing you a bit there. I am now convinced the maids are uninvolved.
The little blonde, by the way, doesn’t have much tact because she’s a thoughtless teen. And she’s a maid who cleans up after her betters. She doesn’t know much, but thinks she’s seen everything.
Still, you’d think she’d notice Peonie tearing up over seeing her friend like that. At least the mom seemed to notice.
I do find it interesting that, if it really is Isabel, it seems Teresa made a sure to tell the maids to keep Isabel clean. Not sure what to make of that. Would it mean that she cares or is it to humiliate her?
And 50srefuge, i apologize for the outburst.
I too was struck by the cleaning; given my assumptions listed above, I take it this is a sign of respect.
Having helped raise my sister’s two attractive teen girls, including one with a personality very like the blonde’s, I can attest that even without a humming spell, they can be remarkably blinkered to the feelings of others.
Respect would also explain why Isabel is in a private room and not in a public place, like the courtyard. I mean, Teresa could have made this punishment worse if she wanted, but didn’t.
Hopefully the next update will clear things up. Though i can also see the next update being Peonie yelling at Teresa.
The “Queen” looks tired. And she is still humming that hymn of hers.
Theresa is so tired, she can barely stand. I’d swear even her boobs are sagging.
Peony, everyone knows you’re upset and angry over how you’ve been treated and what’s been done to Isabel. How about you not waste another moment acting like a spoiled child, and just listen, OK? You would do well to emulate not only your father’s strength, but his patience and restraint.
Something very bad is going on, something that’s affecting not only Urtica’s realm, but also the territories of folk like the usually friendly War’Togs. Everything Peonie has seen since her return has been cloaked for public consumption, I’m guessing at least partly by Theresa’s humming, which did seem to affect you much. Theresa is about to tell you what cannot be publicly revealed.
I’ll be concerned if Theresa doesn’t stop humming once the door closes on the maids, since I think it’s part of the cloak for the commons, but I’ll wait to hear the explanation.
But look at Theresa’s expression in the second frame here:
/2014/10/14/he-means-it/
She and the King are smiling and relaxed in response to Peonie’s royal claim, and she seems to support the King’s agreement with his daughter. Compare their expressions when talking to the would be conspirators a strip or two later.
===
By the way, from what Urtica says to Tiff here:
/2015/01/20/words/
He’s likely to arrive to support Theresa in a few moments. He’s promised explanations to his daughter, and apparently means to give them. I’m eager to see.
===
I actually feel sorry for Theresa. I expect her to collapse as soon as Urtica comes in.
Sense reversing typo in the above: “Theresa’s humming did NOT affect [Peonie] so much.”
I don’t know, her anger at seeing her friend tunedited to stone is arguably justified and don’t think she’s spoiled for being upset. Especially with the reason Olivia gave (Which might not be the truth, but it’s what Peonie has been told). Now, her earlier outburst about the wedding? That I’ll agree.
*Seeing turned into stone i meant.
Her sorrow is justified. But her anger over the initial slights at her return has been acknowledged. She has been promised explanations by her Father, under an oath she has said he will not break.
Now, she needs to listen. And justified or not, her Father sets a fine example of watching and listening until he knows the facts she’d do well to follow.
For instance, there’s this recent instance of Urtica not jumping to conclusions:
2015/01/13/trashing-the-camp/
That’s the kind of restraint I want Peonie to learn. Even Tiff does better than she.
Except at the moment she’s probably under the impression that it’s a completely different matter. I mean, she was not told this is part of the aforementioned explanations.
At the moment, all she knows is that her friend was turned to stone for what she seems to consider petty reasons. It might not be the real reason, but it’s what she’s been told.
I agree she should show some restraint, but being angry at this moment seems understandable.
This probably would have gone better if the King’s letter had gotten to her before she and Typhan returned.
I do wonder the significance of the pose Isabel was left in.
It looks like she’s either praying or begging.
“She was told” IN PUBLIC, I think is the necessary qualifier there. She’s been specifically told “here are things that [they] will have to fill [her] in on, but others must not know”. Isabel was Olivia’s first example.
Everything we’ve seen and been told so far is for public consumption only–and of course for the enemies of the crown, who are likely adept at using gossipy maids as unwitting information channels.
That kinda went out the window when she saw Isabel’s current state though.
The way these events played out, Peonie would think that “Isabel being turned to stone” was what she needed to be filled in on.
Olivia was probably going to tell her the real circumstances, but she clearly had to change what she was going to say when she saw the maids in the room.
am i the only one hoping that the so called church of rem gets wiped out soon in this comic?
When did Mackensie get big boobs? o_O
Has it really been that long?
@Jake: nod-nod
“Olivia was probably going to tell her the real circumstances, but she clearly had to change what she was going to say when she saw the maids in the room.”
This especially. It would explain her somewhat startled expression as she entered the room.
I would like to believe that Peonie was quick enough on the uptake to be playing a role for the maids herself–but I’ll be very surprised if she is.
@Tiffanyhm, I don’t want to see a church “wiped out”, especially when it seems to serve the purpose of keeping magical folk from going rogue. I think they need to be taken down more than a couple of notches, perhaps allowing other magic using groups to form.
I’m seeing some parallels here with the US right to arms movements. I don’t want to see magic (here playing the role of firearms) to be outlawed or suppressed; that’s very dangerous–especially if people are born with the talent. ((BURN THE WITCH!”)
But to have the equivalent of the NRA being the sole voice for magic users, and to have it in bed (literally, now) with the Crown? No no no. No, big time no. Better to have numerous competing schools.
Theresa is an excellent example of why there must be options. State monopolies on force, or on any resource (see “hydraulic empires”) rarely work well.
@Guesticus
Thank you! I was wondering if I was the only one who noticed that!
Seriously, I mean… Last time we met Mackensie, I saw her as the hyped, childish, 12-14 years old little sister of the more “young adult” other maid.
But now, she looks about the same age as her sister, and on the previous page, her boobs look bigger than PEONIE’S!!!
Gosh! Her figure actually reminds me of an entertainer I met a few years ago. And let me tell you, the lady was big!
@50srefuge: Yeah, the tears seem genuine, so i don’t believe Peonie caught on to what Olivia did.
I hope Peonie lets Teresa explain herself first.
50s: Any kind of religious group given any kind of political power or authority needs to be wiped from the face of the Earth. Frankly I don’t even think the US should have a diplomat in the Vatican your either a Church or a government not both.
I think they need to check the circuitry on Theresa’s pre-amp. She has developed an annoying hum.
Probably a cap on the inverter circuit.
Tiffanyhm, not wiped out, but they do need the tips of their fingers chopped off to remind them not to overreach. Remember, though, that all too often it is not the church that seeks power; rather, it is the government that tries to co-opt the church’s power.
There’s a major exception to this, where the scriptures directly call for temporal power as well as spiritual guidance, with horrific results, but that exceeds the scope of these comments.
nope sorry religious organizations should never get involved in temporal power or politics under any circumstance even in a fantasy setting, it should be a civil authority that has some authority over magic users, not a religious organization.
Religions can do a lot of good but any time they are given any power or authority they become wholly evil there is no religion that has ever had political power that has not abused it, the church of rem seems to be one of the more abusive and needs to be reduced heavily, if she turns someone to stone just for blasphemy then yeah..
@Torpedo Los!: Most common cause of hum in my experience: loose ground wire, which might be nothing more than an improperly seated connector.
But it might also be the high voltage circuit powering the electric fence that keeps the enemies of the Crown at bay. That’s my, ahem, current guess.
@Tiffanyhm Question is how could you completly seperate the political aspects from the relgious ones? Religion by its very nature deals with ethics, and politics is a way to balance the various needs of people INCLUDING ethics. Even if all a church did was SAY something was unethical it has an enourmous impact. That is what OFTEN makes it difficult to seperate chruch and state, it is because laws passed are often based on the religous and/spiritual beliefs of those in power. I am NOT saying you do not have a point I am just saying it is, as history shows, a tricky problem to solve.
then the church shouldn’t say ANYTHING that has any bearing on policy. I’m of the mind of Franklin. “Between light houses and churches light houses are more useful. NO religion should have tax exempt status, and a church that opposes gay/lesbian marriage and women in power should be labeled as a hate group. I have NO sympathy for most religions that are bigoted.
@Tifffanyhm Saying “Though Shall Not Kill” is saying something that has a bearing on policy, in that it states murder is wrong and should not be legal. Are you saying they shouldn’t say that? I know that is not what you are going for I am just trying to illustrate the complexites of the issue.
It is correct that State and church should not mix. Tiffanyhym, however, reverses the order of causation when speaking of them becoming mixed. The most destructive mixes of church and State have come from the State, often in the form of an Empire, using a religion as glue to hold the imperial hierarchy together. In the process the imperial State almost always coarsens and twists religion, using force against “heretics”, to allow church doctrines to justify the engrossment of the State.
This was true with both Christianity and Islam. The vast majority of Christians in the US, whatever they believe about legislation or moral judgement matters have no truck with the idea of forcing their religion on anyone. They simply don’t want other belief systems, including atheism, forced into their own lives and communities.
Once we got rid of the captured Church connection with Empire in 1648, Christianity began a distinct process of improvement. Unfortunately, even with the recent call for reform by Al Sisi in Egypt, Islam has yet to see its Westphalian moment.
You can not separate Church from State, majority of everything is because of religion, and that includes the vast majority of all the laws and rules and crap
Hmm… Peonie isn’t wearing underpants.
Exiern +1
Tom Religious views have NO place in policy and should have none in descision making. Laws need to be based on logic, they need to be able to be argued on grounds and on the constitution. You cannot do that with laws based on religious grounds.
Frankly my patience with religion is next to non existent too many religions ban women from positions of power to my mind that is discriminatory and such groups SHOULD NOT BE ABLE TO exist within the United States as that violates our anti discrimination laws. Very seldom has organized religion been good for the world.
@ Tiffanyhm You are right laws should be based on logic and ethics. I am just trying to say that unfortunatly it often is diffcult to pout this into practice. Speaking of ethics banning religion also means DISCRIMANTING against people who are religious EVEN IF they haven’t done anything wrong (Freedom of religion is there for a reason) There is a saying about this, “My right to swing my fist, stops at the next persons nose” What it it means is that you can hold any racist, sexist, views you want SO LONG AS you don’t use those views as an excuse to hurt other people. Speaking of which the way you have been speak has reminded me of a certain incdent in the news that you may or may not have heard of. I am not sure if I should be more specific about said incendent since this discussion is getting political enouugh as it is.
I DO NOT condone violence however I do condone pulling the tax exempt status of any religious oraganization that does not allow women into high offices or accept gays and lesbians, there is after all no right to tax exempt status and I hold any group that discriminates against others in contempt, you can’t change who you are but can change beliefs that are 100% wrong and evil, and not allowing women to be priests bishops rabbis or whatever is indeed 100% evil and people who believe its wrong for women to have such rolls are evil human beings with no redeeming qualities.
50s refugee:
That is the William of Okham part of the test, before really taking things apart. Make sure all the cords are tight, then open the box and reseat all the cards.
But first, make sure you haven’t plugged a 60 hz device into a 50 hz circuit (or vice versa).
JMV: she is wearing leggings, not just a tunic over bare legs
I have to agree with Tiffanyhm
it’s not government that corrupts religion because by it’s very naturel it is already from the start. they are all based not on fact and reason but baseless unquestionable belief.
there member my not actively seek to convert people but will always force others to live by there baseless beliefs no matter what evidence is shown to prove them wrong.
and you can completely remove religion from government because morality and justice has nothing to do with gods or religion. after all morality comes from empathy towards and understanding of others.
in the end religion does nothing but blind people to reality. allowing believers to treat other mame (genital mutilation), torture (pray the gay away) and kill others with no need to feel bad about it.
On the gov/religion thing, here in exiern they have to mix religion and gov because they have gods and their will in full view and so the Church here should be involved in the gov in some way.
,As for the rest, wow, I am amazed at the amount of prejudice displayed here. Especially by people supposedly worried about stopping prejudice. People have the right to be stupid here, obvious by the amount of stupidity that constantly goes on. If we did not have dealings with the Vatican or any Religious state, we wouldn’t have relations with at least 30 countries, including Britain (as they have a state church that is part of the gov there). The government of the USA is based on the belief in religion and God. You cannot separate the gov. from religion here. There is nothing in the constitution about separation of church and state (look it up if you want). The rights enumerated in the constitution are to have come from God, not man. Rights from man can be taken away by man. Rights from God cannot be taken away by man without tyranny which can be fought. The KKK and communist party can exist here and exclude whoever they want from their organizations and they are breaking no laws. Its their right to be as bigoted and prejudiced as they want to.
So,I’ve been reading this comic for a while, and I stood up for Teresa… It is my belief that I was wrong.
We have not seen Teresa since the gang went North. This is not Teresa, it’s a spellsinger who is using an illusion to pretend to be her… perhaps the Jello Witch? (probably not though) and I believe that it has something to do with the statue.
More specifically, I believe the sungisnger is, in fact, Isabella. Think of the reason that she was “turned to stone.” It was because she needed to be shown the true power of someone who believed in Rem.
So, perhaps… There is something more here. We now have a plot where a statue has been made to cover up that Isabella and Teresa have VOLUNTARILY switch places.
Furthermore, the Wartog had been able to attack the Capitol directly, without being detected beforehand. That sounds like an issue that might have magical reasonings, but I would like to also point out… It postponed the wedding until Peonie was here.
@Brad: Excellent, excellent points. Especially the one about the prejudice on display. Tolerance must always be a two way street. I’m reluctant to discuss the matter here, because it strays from being on-topic for discussing the comic, but you’ve said what I’ve been holding back.
I will add only that as a point of history, the idea that there should be a separation of church and state is quite new–actually making it one of the founding stones of the government is unprecedented. Before the American constitution, the idea of a state religion was “Of course! How else can it possibly be?”
My point about stepping on the Church’s toes, rather than stomping it outright, is first to rein it in when it oversteps, to keep it in check. But second, burning the church out, root and branch, leaves the state unchecked. It’s equally dangerous to make the state itself an object of worship, or to give it control over people’s lives and consciences for purely political reasons.
To bring things back to the comic, I note that the Realm seems to be a constitutional monarchy. I suspect that what we’re seeing here is, in effect, Urtica and Theresa acting in concert to divorce church and state without attempting to destroy the church–which has very real magical powers.
I think the marriage between Urtica and Theresa is an excellent move here, including the wait for the church to bless the wedding. Such marriages are often done in more or less feudal societies to cement relations between states while recognizing the sovereignty of each in their own realm.
And in this case, the traditional husband-wife relationship is an excellent model, with the husband representing the state, with its outward looking political role, and the wife representing the inward looking, personal role. The husband has the lead, but his decisions must take his wife’s needs for a safe, comfortable home as his ultimate motivation, rather than his own continually expanding need for power over others.
Ah, and then there’s Knight Tiffany, a warrior woman, caught on the cusp, beholden to neither male aggression not female homemaking, neither crown nor miter, but choosing to act in defense of both, while being free to walk away if her own autonomy is threatened.
If this is in fact what’s going on in the comic, it’s brilliant, and in my mind, would transcend Tiffany’s personal crisis by casting in it in terms of the common good, rather than her own, barbarian desires.
There is contradiction here, and conflict, with those contradictions and conflict almost fractal as our focus changes from the personal to the political.
I eagerly await enlightenment as to current events.
@naroji: I’m reluctant speculate on exactly who is whom, having pretty much been shot down on my attempt. But I like your keen observation that the War’Tog invasion delayed the wedding until Peonie’s return. I don’t think that’s exactly the reason for the fight, something larger seems to be at play, indicating a general breakdown, but…yeah, that may well have played a part.
Brad even in a magical world religion should never be involved in policy in anyway shape or form to my mind that would restrict magic unnecessarily. The government should be perfectly capable of policing magic users and such by hiring some there should be no such thing as heresey or punishment for it, the fact that Teressa did this lowers my opinion of her dramatically.
We still don’t know what the Whistling Tea-kettle has done yet