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Starting February 1st ALL new Exiern pages will post ONLY to Exiern.com and Our Patreon. Please read and support us there!
Swords, Sorcery, And Then Some!
Howdy, New Readers! Thanks for reading Exiern!
Written by Scott T. Hicken with art by Antipus, the comic updates Mondays. Please check out the Archive to enjoy the earlier adventures of Typh and Peonie!
Exiern contains mature themes and is best for readers 18+.
Amazingly, I was basically right. I called one. I kinda don’t know what to say. Gorsh.
Urtica was the one at the door.
Theresa and Urtica are indeed attacking the church, although I thought they were just going to rein it in, not bring it down.
The comments to the maids were indeed cover for the plan.
Now we wait to find out what happened to Isabel, and what Urtica wants his daughter to do with the plan.
Thanks, Scott, for putting up this relatively simple transition strip early. I’ll happily await info-packed exposition strips on the usual schedule for as long as it takes to get the new arc spun up and off the ground.
Maybe it was the Church that was behind the attack????
They sure have a reason to attack the King, and what better way than get some proxy to do it, like the pig things. With the Kings attention else were all the plotter will strike, the King will fall. Then the Church comes to the rescue restores order and takes control of the Alliance. All they have to do is nothing and not help the King.
Was panel three Princess P-cups (oh, by the way, there is now a “Princess D-cups” over in “YetAnotherFantasyGameComic”) going into automatic submissive state? But panel four she couldn’t hold in her indignation any longer? 😀
Well it worked for Henry the VIII, as long as Urtica can keep his figure better than Henry did (and Teresa’s neck fares better than Anne Boleyn’s) I see no problem.
Bad Taiming remember in older times many kingdoms had to go to the church for approval of almost anything. I’m halfway surprised in real life that no one seized the vatican and burned it to the ground if I’d been king of France or something I totally would have done that as the church was a very evil institution in the middle ages one that had NO redeeming values or qualities
@Tiffanyhm: The catholic church wasn´t this monolithic entity many people think it was. The pope was head of the church but there was a lot of meddling from secular rulers and nobles. Priest and bishops were often invested by kings or a position appointed by local powers, the spanish church (including the colonies) was a state church more or less for example. The french king forced the pope or well one of them to relocate to Avignon for example. The relationship between church and state changed a lot in the Middle Ages and later depending on who was the most powerful at the moment.
I think the church was more a mirror of the society of the Middle Ages. Our ancestors were more or less a bunch of dicks. Witch burnings (a phenomenon more common in the early modern times) were common in proitestant areas too and secular powers and normal locals were quite eager participants. The wealth of the “guilty” person was divided up between the accuser and the juridiction after all.
I don ´t say that the church was a nice entity. it was powerful and corrupt and guilty as hell but it had a lot company.
I’d say Teresa doesn’t have to out-hum the entire Church of Rem unless they know there’s a conspiracy afoot. But she does have to keep up some kind of security screen to prevent the church from prying.
The Church has withheld its official blessing and as the primary institution where magic is practiced, the Church has a whole lot of power.
Tiffanyhm, while various churches have gotten out of hand throughout history, so have every government–and their record is far, far worse than that of the curches.
knite, I like the idea that it was a priest or church wizard that converted Isabel. I’m assuming nothing, but it’s a possibility.
50srefugee government can be changed it is far harder to change a religion, and I’ll have respect for religions the day all religions allow women to be priests bishops or whatever. Any religion that does not allow that does not deserve to exist period end of story.
Isabel I think a statue to prove loyalty to the church. I suspect she out and about and that not her.king needing to reform or destroy the church is something I mentioned brfore. Peonies a girl snd church would nrver follow her. And I still suspect they might be responceble for her moms disappearce.
Agreeing with Tiffanyhm: governments have changed, but the church has remained the same, and people still look to them for guidance and leadership
The only thing stopping gay marriage, is the church
The newest Pope, while not making all of the changes I would like, (the aforementioned Gay Marriage and Ordination of Women among them), has made other significant changes.
For example, pointing out that the church should support unwed mothers and baptize babies regardless of whether or not they were born in wedlock.
Guesticus exactly and not just gay lesbian marriage the way religions do not allow women in positions of power is 100% disgusting only the religions that do so are worth any respect, any other needs to be destroyed root and branch and its followers mocked for being stuck in the middle ages
@Tiffanyhm
I favor a flat personal income tax, with no exemptions, in any case. The church itself would not be taxed, but its paid employees certainly would. and that includes clergy.
Churches traditionally tithe 10%. I think that’s a good rate for taxes as well. And we get what government we can afford, not what the government thinks we should have.
Animilia there is no right to tax exempt status if you want tax exempt status you should not be allowed to discriminate discrimination should never be protected. Discrimination is not religious speech it is sick and wrong and any religion that does so does not deserve to be allowed in this country.
50s refugee i disagree with that entirley any organization that takes in money should be taxed unless it is a non profit that follows our laws on discrimination.
Tyffanhym is so locked into her own “righteous cause” that she isn’t listening, guys. In this she has completely reversed the method used to obviate the imposition of a State Church that serves the interests of the State first. (BTW, *that* was what was in the Constitution, *not* “separation of church and State”. It was a definite prohibition on the State influencing religious worship. This influence over their religious life was a large part of what many immigrants were breaking away from when they came here between 1620 and 1920. Almost every European State had its own State Church, largely controlled by the State, usually through controlling its funds. That is the pattern Tyffanhym speaks of as good to emulate.
Tyffanhym *wants* the State to influence religious worship, by penalizing Church organizations with a tax that do not adhere to progressive doctrine, and letting those that endorse progressive doctrine be free of that tax. This is the *exact* reverse of what was intended by those who wrote the Constitution and wrote voluminously about it afterwards. Tyffanhym either has not thought this through, or wants to have the State control yet another major portion of Civil Society.
iety
It is you who is not reading Tom: Tiffanyhm is saying that no church should have tax exemption
And what would be wrong if those who supported no discrimination was rewarded anyway?
@tyff Freeedom of Speech SPECIFAcLLY pertacts speecjh people DON’t ccare to hear. After all speech people like to hear doesn’t really need any protection does it.
“It is you who is not reading Tom: Tiffanyhm is saying that no church should have tax exemption”
That is not what Tiffanhym’s previous post said.
“50s refugee i disagree with that entirley any organization that takes in money should be taxed unless it is a non profit that follows our laws on discrimination.”
“And what would be wrong if those who supported no discrimination was rewarded anyway?”
That would be “reward” for following the interests of the State, instead of the expressed interests of church members. That would be exactly what the Constitutional provision was designed to prohibit the State from doing, getting religious bodies to place the State’s interest first. In this case that State interest would be the progressive policy supporting gay marriage.
The Founders had far too much experience with this in English history to risk it in the US. It is precisely this sort of thing, in forming the dogmas of the Church of England, that led to England’s Civil War, 1642-49. The Founder’s answer, as on so many other expressions of political power, was to restrict the State from interfering in Civil Society, in this case, in religion. That has served us well.
Indeed, a key factor in rallying people to the attempt to break the Union was the slave-states driving out preachers who openly opposed slavery inside the slave-states. So, this sort of thing was part of what got us the US Civil War. Let us not do that again, OK? We filled more than enough cemeteries in the first go-round.
Tiffanyhm isn’t just talking about churches, but “any organization that takes in money”. I’ll hold further comment on her position until I understand what she thinks taxes are for.
===
Since I believe that funding the government is the sole proper purpose of taxation, I favor a flat percentage income tax on individuals, nothing more. Once you start granting exemptions, taxation begins to be used as a social engineering tool. No good.
===
The U.S. Constitution was intended to do nothing but structure the federal government and delegate & limit its powers. The purpose of the government itself was to “secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity” (and several other duties subordinate to that purpose). It was never intended to give the government the power to control the details of the lives of the people. Quite the contrary; the people were always supposed to control the government; they are, in effect, a fourth branch. To that end, the First Amendment prohibits the government to direct the conscience of the people, and the Second forbids the government to deprive the people of the tools of resistance (and thus prevent things from getting so off track revolution was the only recourse).
This is why social-engineering taxation, and taxation in general, is so flat out toxic. It is antithetical to the founding principles.
===
In the Exiern story-verse, the Church of Rem does not exist simply to inspire the conscience of the people. It directly regulates the behavior of those individuals possessing magical powers, and to properly train them. It is more like a technical university and professional society than what we understand as a church.
I speculate that one of the problems here is exactly that the professional association function has gotten confused with the moral function, and I agree that that’s dangerous. I do not want scientists and engineers dictating right and wrong.
But I also fear that the prohibition of female spell singers is not mere misogyny. Rather, I wonder if bitter experience has shown that as bad as rogue male sorcerers can be (Faden) female spell singers generally tend to be dangerous or socially destabilizing in some way, even if well-intentioned. But not enough about the structure of this society has been revealed to us to know that.
I have to admit, I do not want the professional association to be dissolved; unless everyone can be given magical powers, I want those who do have them to be reined in by the civil authority.
But part of that mean abolishing its church functions, wielding not just magical powers but moral authority over the mundane. (Except, you know, we’ve seen hints that true mastery of those powers implies understanding some moral balance or something. Hm. Interesting problem.)
In short, Urtica’s Grand Luminary Alliance is not the modern USA, or even Europe, and we need to be careful about applying our standards to them.
Tom Billings we are a progressive country and regressive beliefs have NO PLACE OR VALUE also to 50s refugee a limited federal government does not make sense in modern context. A progressive tax is the only kind that actually works. Society works better when taxes are high at the top and low at the bottom and middle as it allows the most upward mobility. The responsibilities of the federal government have increased, the government is no longer the greatest threat to individual liberty.
Remember the federal government freed slaves, gave people civil rights ended segregation. The states have been the ones trying to limit or destroy peoples rights and civil liberties not the federal government
Also why shouldn’t religions be forced to practice the same non discriminatory policies as everyone else? There is no reason why we should accept that women cannot be religious leaders any religion that does not does not deserve respect at all nor should they be allowed to practice here unhindered. Civil rights matter more than silly outdated vile evil beliefs.
Furthermore anyone in favor of religions discriminating against women is a vile evil person with no redeeeming qualities as a human being.
Tiffanyhm, what do you mean by “progressive” and “regressive”?
Note that slavery is not possible unless the government can be invoked to enforce it. The Union didn’t make war against slave holders, but against the Confederacy, the government that nurtured them.
And a “right” is an action you can take or a way of life you can pursue without asking anyone’s permission. If the government grants them, they can be taken away.
A business that refuses to accept certain persons as customers is only a threat to the people if, again, the government defines and enforces those unacceptable classes. That makes it difficult or impossible for other businesses to spring up that serve those people.
Only the government can force people to act against their will at gunpoint. The twentieth century stands as a memorial fountain of blood to the hazards of strong government.
Any religion that refuses to recognize the biological and psychological differences between men and women, or that imposes arbitrary distinctions that are not based on those differences, will collapse of its own accord. Only if it joins with the state to impose its fantasies on the people does it become a threat.
And again: what we are looking at in Exiern is NOT a church as we understand them.
To a first approximation, our religions present more or less organized systems of moral rules growing out of their underlying principles. The Church of Rem clerics control very real powers–and the Church organizes and trains them according to principles that have not yet been entirely revealed to us.
To make a blanket condemnation of a group for simply disagreeing with you on moral matters is exactly the religious discrimination you protest against.
“Liberty doesn’t mean you can do whatever you want, oh no no no. It means people you hate can do crap that drives you crazy–and there’s not a damn thing you can do about it.”
“Tom Billings we are a progressive country and regressive beliefs have NO PLACE OR VALUE ”
No, Tiffanhym. You pay attention to only the progressive portions of this country. The coasts are progressive after 50 years of academic progressive propaganda. The rest of the country is not!
Every wave of reaction against industrial society has adopted the core of progressive politics, that the State should be allowed to experiment on the lives of the people, subsuming Civil Society under the coercion of government. Progressive politics has been racist, when race bigotry was on the rise. Progressive politics has been socialist, when class bigotry was on the rise. Progressive politics has been multicultural when anti-industrial bigotry was on the rise. Progressive politics has been environmental, at the same time it was multicultural, because both attacked industrial society, and used that attack to assault Civil Society to expand the reach of government. Each wave, including their more totalitarian expressions in other countries *all* used the progressive meme of the government experimenting with the lives of the rest of us through coercive social engineering.
That is precisely what the Constitution was put in place to keep from happening.
The hardest thing about the industrial society around the world is that to keep its highly productive networks feeding 6 of the 7 billion humans on this planet we must protect *other*people’s*freedoms*of*action*. That is what the Constitution does. Every step away from those freedoms is a step back towards the agrarian culture hierarchies of the past, and the low productivity that will mean mass starvation for that 6 billion humans.
Freedom is better than “progressivism”. Academia is having a harder and harder time obscuring that. As the desertion of academic hierarchies continues, freedom will come even to the benighted dwellers of coastal cities.
“Also why shouldn’t religions be forced to practice the same non discriminatory policies as everyone else?”
Because religious people are also free men and women, autonomous and sovereign over their own lives, whether I agree with any particular church, or not. Again, it’s other people’s freedoms that are so important.
50s refugee i disagree with you on almost all the points on government. We need a tax system that makes sure that everyone has an equal chance at the top when tax rates are what we have now you get a very dangerous situation in which the wealth distribution is too unequal. A society cannot maintain wealth distribution like ours for very long.
Tom these religions are hurting women by not letting them have positions of authority THEY DO NOT GET TO DISCRIMINATE, discrimination disguised as religion is still discrimination and still 100% evil and wrong. ANYONE advocating for a religion to be able to do that is a sick twisted evil individual. Thus if your arguing for continued unequal treatment of women then you yourself are a horrible person, there is no middle ground here there is no excuse for discrimination of any kind any kind of doctrine that does discriminate has no moral value, also the church in exiern is corrupt and evil with no redeeming qualities
I don’t know about anyone else, but I don’t come here to read about religion and/or government in the real world. There are plenty of forums for such discussion elsewhere. Perhaps this discussion should go there.
“Tom these religions are hurting women by not letting them have positions of authority ”
Indeed, I would agree with that, and would not be in such a church.
“ANYONE advocating for a religion to be able to do that is a sick twisted evil individual. Thus if your arguing for continued unequal treatment of women then you yourself are a horrible person,”
No, Tiffanhym, you once again forget the vast importance of industrial networking freedoms of action for all. These include not just physical freedoms, and political freedoms, and market freedoms, and intellectual freedoms of action, …it includes spiritual freedoms of action. You know, the kind that apply to church doctrine? Campaign all you like, personally, to get these churches to change their doctrines. Do not try to use the coercive power of government to do so, or you will be breaking the basic law of the Republic.
You demonstrate a completely totalitarian attitude towards your objectives, in that you would destroy the document protecting all our freedoms, in order to destroy the freedoms of action for one set of people, in one level of their actions. In this, you join the 20th centuries worst actors, who slaughtered hundreds of millions of human beings to achieve *their* totalitarian objectives. Please do not go further in their direction.
Tom we are a nation of EQUALITY a nation founded on the idea that all men and women are equal we have not always lived up to that BUT THAT Will not be true until ever single root of intollerance is stamped out. These religions are sick and evil and it is the governments job to force them to change if they are not willing to change themselves, such religions do no good in this country.
I’m not advocating slaughtering them but any organization that does not advocate equal status for men and women needs to be TAXED and needs to be labeled a hate group. Furthermore any such group also needs diplomatic status removed there is no reason for the US to have diplomatic relations with the vatican it is not a separate state.
I’m also in favor of ending all diplomatic ties with Saudi Arabia for the same reason they are evil people running that country.
The key thing to remember, in my opinion, is that while the principle of freedom of religion allows people to be members of religions that encourage their members to be jerks, that same principle allows people that don’t want to “belong” to such a religion (whether because they don’t want to be jerks, associate with jerks, or be victims of jerkism, or for other reasons entirely) to leave such a religion (or any religion), and prohibits a religion from forcing its values on anyone else.
That there are still a great many places where this ideal has fallen short to greater or lesser degree, does not invalidate the ideal. And I would be very surprised to find any place where the ideal has fallen short where there wasn’t either a government mucking about in religion or a religion mucking about in government.
“jerks” – Compare Obama to an ape/monkey once and you have racism, do it to a white president 100x (either Bush or Reagan) and you don’t…
take the book “A handmaid’s tale’ by Margrett Atwood, substitute “Gayland” for “Jesusland” and you would have “hate literature against homosexuals”… [The movie basic instinct got mass protests from homosexuals at first for 1000x milder)
Men are many times more likely to end up in jail then females, so therefore to promote euqality similar to politics and corporate boards we need to have quotas to make sure that 50% of people in jail are women, as no real differences between genders. (That business in statistics where men tend to have much more standard deviation… more at top and bottom must be wrong)
In africa they see polygamy as good and homosexual as bad, opposite of here… where polygamy is bad yet “50 Shades of Grey” is wonderful… despite 50 shades of grey can be argued to consentually abuse women more than typical african man with his harem. African guy points to lions, the male dominates his harem, as far as darwin natural selection goes polygamy is many times easier to argue “in the genes/born that way” while looking at animals homosexual is nearly a tie with bestiality… you’ll find as many animals trying to have sex with a different species as same sex of same species…
In Iran the Shaw tried to force all the women to not be covered… the women took a good part of lead in coup getting rid of him.
Aesop’s story “The Wind and The Sun” – persuasion works better than force… if your way is really better than other peoples then show by example and other people will come.
There are lots of examples of “force’ in last 100 years, and atheists have a big share just like religious guys… eg Pot Pot, Stalin, Mao, Lenin…
similarly with Church of Rem in the story… there is a difference between 1) breaking the power of church to “force” people to do things their way and 2) trying to force all the people who believe in rem to give up their religion
Folks, I’d love a good brawl, but please, can we at least try to get back to the comic? Or can somebody propose a forum where we can discuss these matters freely?
“can we at least try to get back to the comic?” The comic is obviously tied to real life just as fictional “1984”, “Brave New World”, “Animal Farm”, “A Hand Maid’s tale” was tied to viewpoints of real life… so you will always get some discussion on the parallels.
The US was founded on the principle that all men and women were created equal? Women got the right to vote in all US states in 1920 followng countries like Australia, a lot of Europe and Australia. Some states passed legislation in that direction before that date.
By the way the Vatican is a recognized nation state, some holdover from the time when the Vatican actually ruled parts of Italy.
It seems to me that this whole females aren´t allowed to be spellsingers thing going on in the church of Rem is probably because the Luminary Alliance is or was a patriarchal society. The church enforced this wohle crap because society thinks that women shouldn´t wield power because they are women. The church is part of the patriarchal system not its origin point because priests like to be dicks and have one.
It could be that the population of the Alliance is ready to accept to change to a more equal society, it seems that the barbarians are shifting to a more equal society already. If not then Urtica´s attempt will probably fail like the one of the shah in Iran or Echnaton´s attempt at monotheism. Perhaps not now but in a few years.
I’m just going to interject here and say that America is not nor has it ever been a nation of equality. Nor was it founded on the principle of equality. “All men are created equal” only ever refered to white, Protestant, property-owning males.
@Tiffanhym The government’s job is to manage national affairs and protect its people from foreign powers, not interfere with personal freedoms. History will tell you plainly that the totalitarian foolishness you are espousing is exactly what led to creation of America as a nation to be begin with. Your personal dislike of religion has no bearing on anything and I am deeply uncomfortable with anyone who thinks a government should have the authority dictate morality. That kind of thinking leads to police-states and shows a sickening moral laziness. It is not the government’s job to change the minds of people who hold contrary views, it is the people’s job to persuade others to abandon those views. Persecution only makes people cling to their views even harder.
@Harkness:
Point of definition: There is no “right to vote”. It is always and everywhere a conditional privilege. You must at least be a member of the group holding the vote (for legal jurisdictions, a citizen). Often there is an age requirement. In the US, you must submit a draft card–but that restriction falls ONLY ON MEN. Women are not subject to the draft. (Although we don’t currently have one at all.)
The Alliance apparently has a constitutional monarchy–but we have not read that document, nor do we know how well it is enforced, particularly against the nobility.
It is not clear to me that the Northern barbarians are shifting; rather, it seems we’ve just learned more about them. Male and female roles must necessarily be different to some degree, but that is especially true in societies living in fringe environments.
We do not know why the church believes women mustn’t be spell singers. I won’t even guess. But it is entirely possible that they tried, and found that on balance, making women spell singers causes some problem that outweighs the benefits of a larger talent pool.
I grant that the rule may have arisen in a more marginal society than the current alliance. We do not know enough of pre-Alliance history.
Finally, I am very disturbed by the marriage of Urtica and Theresa. This strikes me as upsetting what we would recognize as the separation of church and state. Or perhaps upsetting the checks and balances–imagine our President and the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court being married.
Again, we don’t know. But while I am sympathetic to the personal plight of Theresa, Tiffany, and even Urtica(if he is truly acting out of a personal affection for Theresa), we are seeing a major change in society being wrought by force, and not by the will of the people.
Sometimes the problems of two little people–or even two wildly powerful people–don’t amount to a hill of magic beans in this crazy world.
If religions don’t want the government to meddle then they should not claim tax exempt status and should not talk about what are political issues gay lesbian marriage, abortion and what not ARE NOT IN ANYWAY SHAPE OR FORM Religious issues. So until religions stop trying to force their views on the rest of us I will continue to advocate for any religion that is in effect a hate group to be labeled as such, and the Vatican needs to die in a fire, it should have happened a long time ago. We should not see it as a nation state you are either a religion or a government not both to recognize the church as a state and a religion gives the vatican far too much power and authority in the world. This is the 21st century the power of all religions needs to be broken completely.
If your post mentions real world places and ideologies you are no longer talking about the comic!! This forum is for discussion of the comic. The Church of Rem is not the Catholic church, they do not practice Judaism, nor worship Mohamed. They are a fictional church with, we really don’t know, some amount of power that the King believes is too great.
Likewise I suspect the laws of the Luminary Alliance are not even remotely similar (beyond laws against theft and murder) to the laws laid out in the US Constitution.
Arguing about facets of the constitution, voting rights, and tax exempt status for religious groups does not belong in these forums. They are in no way related to the story at hand.
The other tribes already accept women in positions of power, seems the biggest clan (IIRC Tiff´s clan is the biggest one) is lagging behind.
I like the idea that it´s a holdover from more patriarchic times more than some idea that women are to unstable or so to practice magic. It could even be some stupid superstition that female spellsingers turn into nymphs or so.
The wedding could be a problem. OTOH church and state in the time the comics draws inspiration from never were truly separated but more cooperating, competing or dominating each other.
I wonder if there is actually any power bloc that is a counterweight to the crown. A constitution is nice and dandy but I haven´t seen anyone who could force Urtica to adhere to it if he went absolutist.
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So, she’s outsinging (humming) the whole church. That should be tiring.
Amazingly, I was basically right. I called one. I kinda don’t know what to say. Gorsh.
Urtica was the one at the door.
Theresa and Urtica are indeed attacking the church, although I thought they were just going to rein it in, not bring it down.
The comments to the maids were indeed cover for the plan.
Now we wait to find out what happened to Isabel, and what Urtica wants his daughter to do with the plan.
Thanks, Scott, for putting up this relatively simple transition strip early. I’ll happily await info-packed exposition strips on the usual schedule for as long as it takes to get the new arc spun up and off the ground.
Woa.
I’m confused…
Isabel was going to rat them out to the Church?
Maybe it was the Church that was behind the attack????
They sure have a reason to attack the King, and what better way than get some proxy to do it, like the pig things. With the Kings attention else were all the plotter will strike, the King will fall. Then the Church comes to the rescue restores order and takes control of the Alliance. All they have to do is nothing and not help the King.
An update?! On a thursday?! IS the comic updating twice a week again?! Please god say yess!!!
Collector, no this is a one shot. Scott has said the production schedule can’t support it.
Collector, here’s Scott’s post:
http://www.exiern.com/2015/02/17/if-eyes-could-kill/#comment-100385
Scroll down in the same thread, and he made another post with his short term plans.
Was panel three Princess P-cups (oh, by the way, there is now a “Princess D-cups” over in “YetAnotherFantasyGameComic”) going into automatic submissive state? But panel four she couldn’t hold in her indignation any longer? 😀
Well it worked for Henry the VIII, as long as Urtica can keep his figure better than Henry did (and Teresa’s neck fares better than Anne Boleyn’s) I see no problem.
YAY AWSOME I approve of this plan 100%
Bad Taiming remember in older times many kingdoms had to go to the church for approval of almost anything. I’m halfway surprised in real life that no one seized the vatican and burned it to the ground if I’d been king of France or something I totally would have done that as the church was a very evil institution in the middle ages one that had NO redeeming values or qualities
Are we suppose to assume the church turned her friend into a statue?
@Tiffanyhm: The catholic church wasn´t this monolithic entity many people think it was. The pope was head of the church but there was a lot of meddling from secular rulers and nobles. Priest and bishops were often invested by kings or a position appointed by local powers, the spanish church (including the colonies) was a state church more or less for example. The french king forced the pope or well one of them to relocate to Avignon for example. The relationship between church and state changed a lot in the Middle Ages and later depending on who was the most powerful at the moment.
I think the church was more a mirror of the society of the Middle Ages. Our ancestors were more or less a bunch of dicks. Witch burnings (a phenomenon more common in the early modern times) were common in proitestant areas too and secular powers and normal locals were quite eager participants. The wealth of the “guilty” person was divided up between the accuser and the juridiction after all.
I don ´t say that the church was a nice entity. it was powerful and corrupt and guilty as hell but it had a lot company.
Urtica thinks he’s Henry the VIII now?
jmucchiello,
First, hi to a fellow EGS forum-goer.
I’d say Teresa doesn’t have to out-hum the entire Church of Rem unless they know there’s a conspiracy afoot. But she does have to keep up some kind of security screen to prevent the church from prying.
The Church has withheld its official blessing and as the primary institution where magic is practiced, the Church has a whole lot of power.
/pops popcorn
This will be good.
Tiffanyhm, while various churches have gotten out of hand throughout history, so have every government–and their record is far, far worse than that of the curches.
knite, I like the idea that it was a priest or church wizard that converted Isabel. I’m assuming nothing, but it’s a possibility.
50srefugee government can be changed it is far harder to change a religion, and I’ll have respect for religions the day all religions allow women to be priests bishops or whatever. Any religion that does not allow that does not deserve to exist period end of story.
The King is going to take down the Church.
The Queen was using song magic to hide the King’s plan.
Princess P-Cups is essential to the plan.
Oo-kay, and I need to re-read the story.
Now going off the idea that Peonie isn’t human I would love it if her mother turned out to be Rem. More so if the king didn’t know.
Isabel I think a statue to prove loyalty to the church. I suspect she out and about and that not her.king needing to reform or destroy the church is something I mentioned brfore. Peonies a girl snd church would nrver follow her. And I still suspect they might be responceble for her moms disappearce.
Or thr king duspects it.
Sudpects it.
@Harkness, my only disagreement is the implied notion that we have gotten better than our ancestors on dickishness.
Agreeing with Tiffanyhm: governments have changed, but the church has remained the same, and people still look to them for guidance and leadership
The only thing stopping gay marriage, is the church
actually there has been change.
The newest Pope, while not making all of the changes I would like, (the aforementioned Gay Marriage and Ordination of Women among them), has made other significant changes.
For example, pointing out that the church should support unwed mothers and baptize babies regardless of whether or not they were born in wedlock.
See here:
http://abcnews.go.com/International/francis-latin-american-pope/story?id=18722276
&
here:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2538097/Pope-Francis-baptises-baby-unmarried-couple-Sistine-Chapel-Baptism-Of-The-Lord-mass-Vatican.html
He has also been more then willing to call out members of his own clergy for their hypocrisy
Here:
http://www.salon.com/2014/12/22/pope_francis_slams_vatican_clergy_suffers_from_spiritual_alzheimers/
&
Here:
http://www.thecatholictelegraph.com/pope-francis-priests-should-be-shepherds-living-with-the-smell-of-the-sheep/13439
My point with all of this is you should take note of BOTH the bad AND the good.
Guesticus exactly and not just gay lesbian marriage the way religions do not allow women in positions of power is 100% disgusting only the religions that do so are worth any respect, any other needs to be destroyed root and branch and its followers mocked for being stuck in the middle ages
Animilia until women can be leaders in the church it is still not far enough and its tax exempt status needs to be revoked.
Wouldn’t taking away said status interfere with the seperation of church and state?
@Tiffanyhm
I favor a flat personal income tax, with no exemptions, in any case. The church itself would not be taxed, but its paid employees certainly would. and that includes clergy.
Churches traditionally tithe 10%. I think that’s a good rate for taxes as well. And we get what government we can afford, not what the government thinks we should have.
Animilia there is no right to tax exempt status if you want tax exempt status you should not be allowed to discriminate discrimination should never be protected. Discrimination is not religious speech it is sick and wrong and any religion that does so does not deserve to be allowed in this country.
50s refugee i disagree with that entirley any organization that takes in money should be taxed unless it is a non profit that follows our laws on discrimination.
Tiffanhm, why do you want to do that? Is the plan to fund the government, or something else?
Tyffanhym is so locked into her own “righteous cause” that she isn’t listening, guys. In this she has completely reversed the method used to obviate the imposition of a State Church that serves the interests of the State first. (BTW, *that* was what was in the Constitution, *not* “separation of church and State”. It was a definite prohibition on the State influencing religious worship. This influence over their religious life was a large part of what many immigrants were breaking away from when they came here between 1620 and 1920. Almost every European State had its own State Church, largely controlled by the State, usually through controlling its funds. That is the pattern Tyffanhym speaks of as good to emulate.
Tyffanhym *wants* the State to influence religious worship, by penalizing Church organizations with a tax that do not adhere to progressive doctrine, and letting those that endorse progressive doctrine be free of that tax. This is the *exact* reverse of what was intended by those who wrote the Constitution and wrote voluminously about it afterwards. Tyffanhym either has not thought this through, or wants to have the State control yet another major portion of Civil Society.
iety
It is you who is not reading Tom: Tiffanyhm is saying that no church should have tax exemption
And what would be wrong if those who supported no discrimination was rewarded anyway?
@tyff Freeedom of Speech SPECIFAcLLY pertacts speecjh people DON’t ccare to hear. After all speech people like to hear doesn’t really need any protection does it.
“It is you who is not reading Tom: Tiffanyhm is saying that no church should have tax exemption”
That is not what Tiffanhym’s previous post said.
“50s refugee i disagree with that entirley any organization that takes in money should be taxed unless it is a non profit that follows our laws on discrimination.”
“And what would be wrong if those who supported no discrimination was rewarded anyway?”
That would be “reward” for following the interests of the State, instead of the expressed interests of church members. That would be exactly what the Constitutional provision was designed to prohibit the State from doing, getting religious bodies to place the State’s interest first. In this case that State interest would be the progressive policy supporting gay marriage.
The Founders had far too much experience with this in English history to risk it in the US. It is precisely this sort of thing, in forming the dogmas of the Church of England, that led to England’s Civil War, 1642-49. The Founder’s answer, as on so many other expressions of political power, was to restrict the State from interfering in Civil Society, in this case, in religion. That has served us well.
Indeed, a key factor in rallying people to the attempt to break the Union was the slave-states driving out preachers who openly opposed slavery inside the slave-states. So, this sort of thing was part of what got us the US Civil War. Let us not do that again, OK? We filled more than enough cemeteries in the first go-round.
Tiffanyhm isn’t just talking about churches, but “any organization that takes in money”. I’ll hold further comment on her position until I understand what she thinks taxes are for.
===
Since I believe that funding the government is the sole proper purpose of taxation, I favor a flat percentage income tax on individuals, nothing more. Once you start granting exemptions, taxation begins to be used as a social engineering tool. No good.
===
The U.S. Constitution was intended to do nothing but structure the federal government and delegate & limit its powers. The purpose of the government itself was to “secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity” (and several other duties subordinate to that purpose). It was never intended to give the government the power to control the details of the lives of the people. Quite the contrary; the people were always supposed to control the government; they are, in effect, a fourth branch. To that end, the First Amendment prohibits the government to direct the conscience of the people, and the Second forbids the government to deprive the people of the tools of resistance (and thus prevent things from getting so off track revolution was the only recourse).
This is why social-engineering taxation, and taxation in general, is so flat out toxic. It is antithetical to the founding principles.
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In the Exiern story-verse, the Church of Rem does not exist simply to inspire the conscience of the people. It directly regulates the behavior of those individuals possessing magical powers, and to properly train them. It is more like a technical university and professional society than what we understand as a church.
I speculate that one of the problems here is exactly that the professional association function has gotten confused with the moral function, and I agree that that’s dangerous. I do not want scientists and engineers dictating right and wrong.
But I also fear that the prohibition of female spell singers is not mere misogyny. Rather, I wonder if bitter experience has shown that as bad as rogue male sorcerers can be (Faden) female spell singers generally tend to be dangerous or socially destabilizing in some way, even if well-intentioned. But not enough about the structure of this society has been revealed to us to know that.
I have to admit, I do not want the professional association to be dissolved; unless everyone can be given magical powers, I want those who do have them to be reined in by the civil authority.
But part of that mean abolishing its church functions, wielding not just magical powers but moral authority over the mundane. (Except, you know, we’ve seen hints that true mastery of those powers implies understanding some moral balance or something. Hm. Interesting problem.)
In short, Urtica’s Grand Luminary Alliance is not the modern USA, or even Europe, and we need to be careful about applying our standards to them.
Tom Billings we are a progressive country and regressive beliefs have NO PLACE OR VALUE also to 50s refugee a limited federal government does not make sense in modern context. A progressive tax is the only kind that actually works. Society works better when taxes are high at the top and low at the bottom and middle as it allows the most upward mobility. The responsibilities of the federal government have increased, the government is no longer the greatest threat to individual liberty.
Remember the federal government freed slaves, gave people civil rights ended segregation. The states have been the ones trying to limit or destroy peoples rights and civil liberties not the federal government
Also why shouldn’t religions be forced to practice the same non discriminatory policies as everyone else? There is no reason why we should accept that women cannot be religious leaders any religion that does not does not deserve respect at all nor should they be allowed to practice here unhindered. Civil rights matter more than silly outdated vile evil beliefs.
Furthermore anyone in favor of religions discriminating against women is a vile evil person with no redeeeming qualities as a human being.
Tiffanyhm, what do you mean by “progressive” and “regressive”?
Note that slavery is not possible unless the government can be invoked to enforce it. The Union didn’t make war against slave holders, but against the Confederacy, the government that nurtured them.
And a “right” is an action you can take or a way of life you can pursue without asking anyone’s permission. If the government grants them, they can be taken away.
A business that refuses to accept certain persons as customers is only a threat to the people if, again, the government defines and enforces those unacceptable classes. That makes it difficult or impossible for other businesses to spring up that serve those people.
Only the government can force people to act against their will at gunpoint. The twentieth century stands as a memorial fountain of blood to the hazards of strong government.
Any religion that refuses to recognize the biological and psychological differences between men and women, or that imposes arbitrary distinctions that are not based on those differences, will collapse of its own accord. Only if it joins with the state to impose its fantasies on the people does it become a threat.
And again: what we are looking at in Exiern is NOT a church as we understand them.
To a first approximation, our religions present more or less organized systems of moral rules growing out of their underlying principles. The Church of Rem clerics control very real powers–and the Church organizes and trains them according to principles that have not yet been entirely revealed to us.
To make a blanket condemnation of a group for simply disagreeing with you on moral matters is exactly the religious discrimination you protest against.
“Liberty doesn’t mean you can do whatever you want, oh no no no. It means people you hate can do crap that drives you crazy–and there’s not a damn thing you can do about it.”
“Tom Billings we are a progressive country and regressive beliefs have NO PLACE OR VALUE ”
No, Tiffanhym. You pay attention to only the progressive portions of this country. The coasts are progressive after 50 years of academic progressive propaganda. The rest of the country is not!
Every wave of reaction against industrial society has adopted the core of progressive politics, that the State should be allowed to experiment on the lives of the people, subsuming Civil Society under the coercion of government. Progressive politics has been racist, when race bigotry was on the rise. Progressive politics has been socialist, when class bigotry was on the rise. Progressive politics has been multicultural when anti-industrial bigotry was on the rise. Progressive politics has been environmental, at the same time it was multicultural, because both attacked industrial society, and used that attack to assault Civil Society to expand the reach of government. Each wave, including their more totalitarian expressions in other countries *all* used the progressive meme of the government experimenting with the lives of the rest of us through coercive social engineering.
That is precisely what the Constitution was put in place to keep from happening.
The hardest thing about the industrial society around the world is that to keep its highly productive networks feeding 6 of the 7 billion humans on this planet we must protect *other*people’s*freedoms*of*action*. That is what the Constitution does. Every step away from those freedoms is a step back towards the agrarian culture hierarchies of the past, and the low productivity that will mean mass starvation for that 6 billion humans.
Freedom is better than “progressivism”. Academia is having a harder and harder time obscuring that. As the desertion of academic hierarchies continues, freedom will come even to the benighted dwellers of coastal cities.
“Also why shouldn’t religions be forced to practice the same non discriminatory policies as everyone else?”
Because religious people are also free men and women, autonomous and sovereign over their own lives, whether I agree with any particular church, or not. Again, it’s other people’s freedoms that are so important.
50s refugee i disagree with you on almost all the points on government. We need a tax system that makes sure that everyone has an equal chance at the top when tax rates are what we have now you get a very dangerous situation in which the wealth distribution is too unequal. A society cannot maintain wealth distribution like ours for very long.
Tom these religions are hurting women by not letting them have positions of authority THEY DO NOT GET TO DISCRIMINATE, discrimination disguised as religion is still discrimination and still 100% evil and wrong. ANYONE advocating for a religion to be able to do that is a sick twisted evil individual. Thus if your arguing for continued unequal treatment of women then you yourself are a horrible person, there is no middle ground here there is no excuse for discrimination of any kind any kind of doctrine that does discriminate has no moral value, also the church in exiern is corrupt and evil with no redeeming qualities
Oooh-kaaay. Waiting for the next comic now.
I don’t know about anyone else, but I don’t come here to read about religion and/or government in the real world. There are plenty of forums for such discussion elsewhere. Perhaps this discussion should go there.
“Tom these religions are hurting women by not letting them have positions of authority ”
Indeed, I would agree with that, and would not be in such a church.
“ANYONE advocating for a religion to be able to do that is a sick twisted evil individual. Thus if your arguing for continued unequal treatment of women then you yourself are a horrible person,”
No, Tiffanhym, you once again forget the vast importance of industrial networking freedoms of action for all. These include not just physical freedoms, and political freedoms, and market freedoms, and intellectual freedoms of action, …it includes spiritual freedoms of action. You know, the kind that apply to church doctrine? Campaign all you like, personally, to get these churches to change their doctrines. Do not try to use the coercive power of government to do so, or you will be breaking the basic law of the Republic.
You demonstrate a completely totalitarian attitude towards your objectives, in that you would destroy the document protecting all our freedoms, in order to destroy the freedoms of action for one set of people, in one level of their actions. In this, you join the 20th centuries worst actors, who slaughtered hundreds of millions of human beings to achieve *their* totalitarian objectives. Please do not go further in their direction.
Tom we are a nation of EQUALITY a nation founded on the idea that all men and women are equal we have not always lived up to that BUT THAT Will not be true until ever single root of intollerance is stamped out. These religions are sick and evil and it is the governments job to force them to change if they are not willing to change themselves, such religions do no good in this country.
I’m not advocating slaughtering them but any organization that does not advocate equal status for men and women needs to be TAXED and needs to be labeled a hate group. Furthermore any such group also needs diplomatic status removed there is no reason for the US to have diplomatic relations with the vatican it is not a separate state.
I’m also in favor of ending all diplomatic ties with Saudi Arabia for the same reason they are evil people running that country.
The key thing to remember, in my opinion, is that while the principle of freedom of religion allows people to be members of religions that encourage their members to be jerks, that same principle allows people that don’t want to “belong” to such a religion (whether because they don’t want to be jerks, associate with jerks, or be victims of jerkism, or for other reasons entirely) to leave such a religion (or any religion), and prohibits a religion from forcing its values on anyone else.
That there are still a great many places where this ideal has fallen short to greater or lesser degree, does not invalidate the ideal. And I would be very surprised to find any place where the ideal has fallen short where there wasn’t either a government mucking about in religion or a religion mucking about in government.
“jerks” – Compare Obama to an ape/monkey once and you have racism, do it to a white president 100x (either Bush or Reagan) and you don’t…
take the book “A handmaid’s tale’ by Margrett Atwood, substitute “Gayland” for “Jesusland” and you would have “hate literature against homosexuals”… [The movie basic instinct got mass protests from homosexuals at first for 1000x milder)
Men are many times more likely to end up in jail then females, so therefore to promote euqality similar to politics and corporate boards we need to have quotas to make sure that 50% of people in jail are women, as no real differences between genders. (That business in statistics where men tend to have much more standard deviation… more at top and bottom must be wrong)
In africa they see polygamy as good and homosexual as bad, opposite of here… where polygamy is bad yet “50 Shades of Grey” is wonderful… despite 50 shades of grey can be argued to consentually abuse women more than typical african man with his harem. African guy points to lions, the male dominates his harem, as far as darwin natural selection goes polygamy is many times easier to argue “in the genes/born that way” while looking at animals homosexual is nearly a tie with bestiality… you’ll find as many animals trying to have sex with a different species as same sex of same species…
In Iran the Shaw tried to force all the women to not be covered… the women took a good part of lead in coup getting rid of him.
Aesop’s story “The Wind and The Sun” – persuasion works better than force… if your way is really better than other peoples then show by example and other people will come.
There are lots of examples of “force’ in last 100 years, and atheists have a big share just like religious guys… eg Pot Pot, Stalin, Mao, Lenin…
similarly with Church of Rem in the story… there is a difference between 1) breaking the power of church to “force” people to do things their way and 2) trying to force all the people who believe in rem to give up their religion
…
Folks, I’d love a good brawl, but please, can we at least try to get back to the comic? Or can somebody propose a forum where we can discuss these matters freely?
Earlier in story we had Denver having his constitutional rights being trampled on by the dictator king…
We also have the king’s daughter as royalty – superior to average person in similar way that a “male” is born superior to a “female” in church of Rem.
“can we at least try to get back to the comic?” The comic is obviously tied to real life just as fictional “1984”, “Brave New World”, “Animal Farm”, “A Hand Maid’s tale” was tied to viewpoints of real life… so you will always get some discussion on the parallels.
The US was founded on the principle that all men and women were created equal? Women got the right to vote in all US states in 1920 followng countries like Australia, a lot of Europe and Australia. Some states passed legislation in that direction before that date.
By the way the Vatican is a recognized nation state, some holdover from the time when the Vatican actually ruled parts of Italy.
It seems to me that this whole females aren´t allowed to be spellsingers thing going on in the church of Rem is probably because the Luminary Alliance is or was a patriarchal society. The church enforced this wohle crap because society thinks that women shouldn´t wield power because they are women. The church is part of the patriarchal system not its origin point because priests like to be dicks and have one.
It could be that the population of the Alliance is ready to accept to change to a more equal society, it seems that the barbarians are shifting to a more equal society already. If not then Urtica´s attempt will probably fail like the one of the shah in Iran or Echnaton´s attempt at monotheism. Perhaps not now but in a few years.
I’m just going to interject here and say that America is not nor has it ever been a nation of equality. Nor was it founded on the principle of equality. “All men are created equal” only ever refered to white, Protestant, property-owning males.
@Tiffanhym The government’s job is to manage national affairs and protect its people from foreign powers, not interfere with personal freedoms. History will tell you plainly that the totalitarian foolishness you are espousing is exactly what led to creation of America as a nation to be begin with. Your personal dislike of religion has no bearing on anything and I am deeply uncomfortable with anyone who thinks a government should have the authority dictate morality. That kind of thinking leads to police-states and shows a sickening moral laziness. It is not the government’s job to change the minds of people who hold contrary views, it is the people’s job to persuade others to abandon those views. Persecution only makes people cling to their views even harder.
@Harkness:
Point of definition: There is no “right to vote”. It is always and everywhere a conditional privilege. You must at least be a member of the group holding the vote (for legal jurisdictions, a citizen). Often there is an age requirement. In the US, you must submit a draft card–but that restriction falls ONLY ON MEN. Women are not subject to the draft. (Although we don’t currently have one at all.)
The Alliance apparently has a constitutional monarchy–but we have not read that document, nor do we know how well it is enforced, particularly against the nobility.
It is not clear to me that the Northern barbarians are shifting; rather, it seems we’ve just learned more about them. Male and female roles must necessarily be different to some degree, but that is especially true in societies living in fringe environments.
We do not know why the church believes women mustn’t be spell singers. I won’t even guess. But it is entirely possible that they tried, and found that on balance, making women spell singers causes some problem that outweighs the benefits of a larger talent pool.
I grant that the rule may have arisen in a more marginal society than the current alliance. We do not know enough of pre-Alliance history.
Finally, I am very disturbed by the marriage of Urtica and Theresa. This strikes me as upsetting what we would recognize as the separation of church and state. Or perhaps upsetting the checks and balances–imagine our President and the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court being married.
Again, we don’t know. But while I am sympathetic to the personal plight of Theresa, Tiffany, and even Urtica(if he is truly acting out of a personal affection for Theresa), we are seeing a major change in society being wrought by force, and not by the will of the people.
Sometimes the problems of two little people–or even two wildly powerful people–don’t amount to a hill of magic beans in this crazy world.
If religions don’t want the government to meddle then they should not claim tax exempt status and should not talk about what are political issues gay lesbian marriage, abortion and what not ARE NOT IN ANYWAY SHAPE OR FORM Religious issues. So until religions stop trying to force their views on the rest of us I will continue to advocate for any religion that is in effect a hate group to be labeled as such, and the Vatican needs to die in a fire, it should have happened a long time ago. We should not see it as a nation state you are either a religion or a government not both to recognize the church as a state and a religion gives the vatican far too much power and authority in the world. This is the 21st century the power of all religions needs to be broken completely.
If your post mentions real world places and ideologies you are no longer talking about the comic!! This forum is for discussion of the comic. The Church of Rem is not the Catholic church, they do not practice Judaism, nor worship Mohamed. They are a fictional church with, we really don’t know, some amount of power that the King believes is too great.
Likewise I suspect the laws of the Luminary Alliance are not even remotely similar (beyond laws against theft and murder) to the laws laid out in the US Constitution.
Arguing about facets of the constitution, voting rights, and tax exempt status for religious groups does not belong in these forums. They are in no way related to the story at hand.
@50srefugee: It was my interpretation of the conversation between tiffny and the shaman here: http://www.exiern.com/2013/03/14/big-ifs/
The other tribes already accept women in positions of power, seems the biggest clan (IIRC Tiff´s clan is the biggest one) is lagging behind.
I like the idea that it´s a holdover from more patriarchic times more than some idea that women are to unstable or so to practice magic. It could even be some stupid superstition that female spellsingers turn into nymphs or so.
The wedding could be a problem. OTOH church and state in the time the comics draws inspiration from never were truly separated but more cooperating, competing or dominating each other.
I wonder if there is actually any power bloc that is a counterweight to the crown. A constitution is nice and dandy but I haven´t seen anyone who could force Urtica to adhere to it if he went absolutist.
The church is hurting women by not allowing them to be carbon based lifeforms.