Standing at the Crossroads
“Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny.”
– Dan, a guy at a Comic Con 2009 who was quoting a Saturday Night Live skit that was parodying Erogon point out the similarities of the movie to Star Wars by using the to the words said by Yoda a character written by George Lucas who based his writing on the archetypical hero’s journey the book “The hero with 1000 faces” by Joseph Campbell that in this case was summarizing the dualism of eastern philosophy that was handed down by the disciples of Buda and Confucius who claimed to simply being conveying revealed truths of the universe.
So I guess a proper citation would be:
“Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny.”
– The universe
So almost exactly 3 years ago I expressed some ambivalence about having nude pictures in the members area of Exiern:
http://exiern.blogspot.com/2007/09/thoughts-from-darkside.html
At the time it was the only way to keep the comic running and keep the artist paid. For the last 3 years it really has saved the comic on a number of occasions. With the once a week update schedule I could not build an audience to support the comic through normal channels. So there had to be nudity or the comic had to close up shop.
Now I have tried my best to keep the characterization positive and also I am pretty equal opportunity with the stripping. Man or woman you will be divested of your vest at some point and probably end up the opposite gender in the process.
In general I try to follow the wonderful quote by Cheris Kramarae; “Feminism is the radical notion that women are people.” Although granted that in Exiern some of the women are men and a few of them men are women this concept gets a little muddy but you get the point. I try to keep the women in the comic PEOPLE at all time. They are just people that we want to see naked.
Still the nudity is a cop out. It’s a way to squeeze more money out of the comic at the cost of some of the integrity of the story. I am not 100% convinced it is misogynistic, the calculation that naked=objectification is a very Taliban sort of math that I don’t agree with. But it is sloppy. It’s is basically saying my story can’t stand on its own merits.
Now I have already said that in the past Exiern could not stand on it’s own without the added nitro boost of an occasional nudie picture. But we are in a different era now. Our new artist is crazy prolific to the point where I can’t keep up with him script wise. I could move the update schedule to 3 times a week. It is possible that I could end the policy of having naked people and still be able to get enough cash out of the system to sustain the comic. It would probably cut profits by a third but a third of what we are making could sustain Exiern.
Today is the last of the scripted nudity in the comic. It ends with a whimper instead of a roar of a glimpse of some priestly members and a half covered nipple. But at this point the script is wide open and I could just steer things away from the burlesque side of things.
I am standing at the crossroad given an opportunity to reconsider the choice I made 3 years ago on this very day actually. I could turn back.
“Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny.”
But I won’t. Exiern will stay what it has become for a number of reasons.
I could sustain Exiern on 1/3rd the income but the point is that the other 2/3rds of that income has been going to other projects. Knit Princess and Blade Bunny paid by the excess from Exiern’s revenues. If I turn my back on Exiern’s business model I have to kill these projects. If you think Exiern is sexist (I don’t agree with that but if you do) then is the price of making it less “sexist” by killing the very sweet and positive comic of Knit Princess worth it?
On top of that the “sexyness” over the past 3 year has become what Exiern is about. Exiern is a sexy transgender fantasy comedy. That is what the story is about that is the style of the both the art and prose and frankly I have come to enjoy that. Exiern is freeing in a way. It’s silly and sexy and just plain fun. To change that now would be a betray of the comic and the audience.
When I first started down this path I worried about portraying women as just bodies to be lusted over. To reinforce a stereo type that is very detrimental and just plain wrong. But by treating men and women equally by messing up who is who and what’s what I got to a new place and more interesting place. A place that’s about having fun and not getting too wrapped up in the puritanical restrictions of society. Naked /= Objectification if everybody’s getting naked.
“Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny.”
It is true but who every said the dark path was the wrong way to take? Well technically Yoda did but he’s just a puppet. When did you ever get good advice from a puppet outside of the difference of “Near” and “Far”.
Don’t get me wrong there are some real dangers with making a “sexy” comic;
Nudity undermines the integrity of your story. It makes it less serious. But if you are shooting for less serious then that’s not a problem.
Nudity will cause people to dismiss your comic off hand as porn and call you’re a pornographer. Once you use nudity in your work there is no turning back from that. You can spend the rest of your life writing children’s books you will still be a pornographer. It’s a compelling reason not to start down this path but not a very compelling reason to stop once you started.
(One addendum to this rule is that if you are a woman you don’t fall into this trap. After all women can’t be perverted only men. A woman making a sex comic is just liberated. If I ever make another comic like Exiern I am going make an online persona of Miss Girly Fem Vagaina a 18 year old ex-cheerleader who likes crochet, flowers, RPG’s and dating men who call themselves feminists. Miss Girly stopped cheerleading because she wanted to make a comic and date men who would support her empowerment. Not a single troll will complain about the comic no matter how perverted it is.)
Nudity can support bad writing. Forcing nudity into a scene where it doesn’t belong will make your writing bad. Good writing will decrease your sales were pointless cheese cake will give you’re a boost in revenue. But you must keep your writing good otherwise you are going to be straying into the world of objectification and eventually the comic will collapse.
All and all I would suggest avoiding nudity in a story. But if you are going to do it do it well because once you do there really is no turning back.
“Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny.”
And to that quote I would like to add the all time best Firefly quote:
“Well, here I am”
this type of dilemma is way outdated, sure there are a lot of
Taliban minded people out there, but just look at Marvel and
DC, they only sustain themselves out of either sex or Gore.
It’s been yeas since i have read a good story, maybe i s because
the artists are so good that there is no need for a good story anymore.
i also felt that companies like Disney where more focused on horney teens
than children, but i thought no is just my sick puppy mind, but then i saw a
South Park episode saying the same thing I was thinking. while i don’t
think they are, by no means, an authority i have to admit they talked of real
issues, sometimes i wish they were more serious and careful about what they say.
but i guess then they wouldn’t be funny.
Nudity, if not used to excess is nothing to be concerned about, and within the gender-shifting meme pervasive in the work, is acceptable. After all, comfortable/not comfortable with one’s body is an undercurrent in the story.
As the old saying goes, “If it ain’t broke don’t fix it.” Come on Drow. With the infinite torrents of real porn on the internet, do you really think people are paying to see cartoon boobies? I support the comic because of it’s good story and characters. I even liked it back when you were doing the artwork. You’re not pandering to perverts or breaking any taboo, you’re giving the establishment a well deserved finger. I’ve seen a lot of web comics that cravenly maintain a PG-13 rating that are way more sexist than your comics have ever been accused of being. Never give in, never give up. We’re all here for you.
I used to write fanfiction as a hobby, and plenty of people rag about sex/sexual themes and graphic depictions. I had to decide on the “dark path” too, and after a few tests, it was a surprisingly easy choice- embracing the “smut” is embracing the real story, and life itself.
Can you hold up a bad story with lots of Pronz? Maybe. I get bored, myself. The story is the meat, and the comic or other art form is only as good as its core item. I like Exiern(except the boob punch- you really should switch that out for a spanking, and not just because it’s hawter :p), and the nudity is in character and adds a good flavoring. The gender-bending makes it even more hilarious, and probably warps the minds of the fundies complaining at you.
IMO, if you’ve made someone think, you’ve done a good job already. Keep it up, and you’re in good company with us in the Dark Side 😀
As another webcomic creator, I know that there’s always going to be something about nudity, but to be honest, I don’t think that nudity is a light/dark kind of thing, but more of a gray area since it depends on how it’s being applied. For example, an artist could request to do nudity if he/she is a college student and wanted practice at drawing certain nudes. Another is based on if the writer has a story that will take the hero/heroine into a spiritual plane where it could be argued that nudity is the norm since clothing is something that was made on earth.
The bad examples…eh, just browse the Adult tagged webcomics at DrunkDuck.
Besides, the only crime you’re committing against storytelling is if the female (I mean born female) character is a mindless idiot who only thinks about having sex with the nearest man.
“Master Yoda, Is the dark side stronger?” — Mark Hammil
“No. Quicker. Easier. More seductive.” — Frank Oz (or was it Jim Henson doing the voice? I can never remember…)
So long as we’re quoting, anyway, might as well add that in. As far as I’m concerned it’s more appropriate, anyway. Cheap nudie shots are quicker, easier, and (sic) more seductive. Good god, that’s almost a terrible pun, there! And the terrible pun is the worst offense possible (really. Just ask anyone that has to deal with me for more than five minutes at a time).
I think the best advice is to keep the nudity where it is story appropriate. No, it’s not right to throw in a Naked Peonie in the middle of a speech just for a cheap gag. Yes, it is right to have her flash her chest (mentally), then wonder why all her plans are ‘slutty’. And since I’m too lazy to look it up, I don’t even remember if that particular scene was from front or behind. Either way, it went to establishing a joke (a running joke at that), and was entirely context appropriate. Having Peonie clothed one panel, nude the next, then clothed again or a sweeps-week style ratings is not. Now, if the clothing disappearance is part of a greater plot (say a mis-spell or lingering effects of something), is noticed by someone (more likely those around her, for whatever reason she remains oblivious to all but a momentary lapse in warmth until she actually sees the effect), and is followed up in the story (possibly to some sort of resolution), then even that is okay.
I can’t completely agree with Unrikk, that you aren’t pandering to perverts, or beaking taboos (I’m a pervert, if a somewhat tamed one; and the whole gender exchange thing is in and of itself a taboo subject of sorts). Other than that, (s)he’s got it right. Never substitute nudity for quality of story, but never be afraid to use it when the story demands its use. And hell, don’t be afraid to throw some in for comedic purposes. Hell, nudity for comedic purposes is a grand tradition that only really went away in the mid-eighties with the tightening of the motion picture ratings codes (watch some late sixties to early eighties comedies. Revenge of the Nerds had full frontal nudity in it. Animal House features a co-ed masturbating. Porky’s had multitudes of body-part shots, including the penis through the hole in the wall to list one of the less than plentiful male nudie shots). I might have to re-comment here later, should I find some of the great arguements about love scenes versus the MPAA rating system (most boil down to the scene stops at the bed’s edge and doesn’t reach the ‘logical’ conclusion. As I recall ther ewere some documentaries of this nature a few years ago, actually…)
At any rate, keep on keepin’ on, bruddah.
Ummm….[cringing] I love this comic. Regretfully I live on a pension with little free cash so I have never even seen the members area. Hence I’ve never seen the nudity. It is still my favourite web comic. I think you underestimate yourself. But I wouldn’t have you change anything for the world.
Here here. There is nothing wrong with your comic. As for your dillema, people are weird. Yes, you make money from naked tunes, but it’s only an element in the story, not the whole thing, not even most of it.
for one thing we have Teresa & Tiffany, the conflict between them is awesome.
thank you.
While I certainly don’t object to nudity, I don’t find it particularly titillating myself. I am far more interested in the interactions and relationships of the characters, the story being told. So, while nudity may be a selling point for some, it isn’t a selling point for everyone. Reducing unnecessary nudity in the story may reduce income from some readers but it may increase it from others. Probably not as much, though, yeah.
Of course, I wouldn’t expect nudity to disappear from the story entirely. But I do like knowing that you have chosen to declare your independence from gratuitous nudity. You really do have a great story and solid characters which I believe can succeed without relying on gratuitous fan-service.
Let the characters strip when the story really calls for it and remain clothed when it does not. I want to read the story that you want to tell.
I must disagree with your statement. I am a writer, and have written adult material in the past. I may again, however the bulk of my material is PG-13 or stops at ‘Fade to Black.’ No one remembers the few adult things I have written, they do remember the rest. Especially a little horror story I wrote titled Nightmares Are Not Only Dreams.
I do like your story. Honestly, and plan to send a little support money your way next January. You see by then our financial situation will have moved from the negative to the positive. As to where you go with your story, I shall be delighted to follow it. After all, it has more curves in it that a Coca-Cola bottle.
Reese
Check out Locus http://www.wevolt.com/Locus/#
It has tons of nudity and still remains bad-a!s. There’s no reason showing a pair of t!!s means you’ve degraded your comic, especially if it fits in well with the story.
As someone who has written material that is decidedly porn for the BESC, and is now working on their own material that will include nudity (but I wouldn’t consider porn), I would say that Exiern is a far cry from porn or having included anything I would call inappropriate for the story. I’ve read plenty of bad porn stories and comics that I gave up on well before getting to the text I was really reading for simply because the story was crap. If someone wants to see nudity for the sake of nudity they can head over to Foobies for free. Anyone reading the comic is here for story and characters. If they’re paying for the members section they are paying for the complete story when nudity is a natural part of the tale you are telling.
Exiern is an amazing comic I have been very happy to support it by buying the big PDF and linking to via my Twitter feed. But the most important question is; are you comfortable with the material in your own comic? If not, excise it. The only standards that matter are your own.
As a parting comment I leave the name of the man I use as my divining rod when it comes to my adult material versus other projects I have planned; Bill Willingham. He’s a great and wonderful man and I briefly met him at C2E2. He’s the mind behind Vertigo’s ongoing and amazing series FABLES. But what I recommend looking up is a comic he wrote and drew called IRONWOOD. It’s a funny and sexy book that has more graphic depictions of porn and violence against women than I’ve really ever seen elsewhere. And he’s gone on from that to this amazing mainstream success with FABLES. So again, it all really comes down to; what do you want your comic to have? What, at the end of the day, will let you sit back and say to yourself, “This was wort it.”
*worth it
I am one of those few who purchased the membership but not for the nudity. I think your comic has gotten significantly better with it’s update schedule, and that’s why I purchased the membership. If people want the nudity, they can become members, but not all members become members to see boobs.
Hey Drowemos,
First off, the comic is great. You’ve made it so regardless of the path you’ve taken. It is entertaining, it shows some growth of characters, it is regularly unpredictable and even thought provoking at times. In short, it shows that you own it.
Your statement here also shows someone who gives thought to life and its direction. To that I address this thought:
Own it!
If you decide, as it appears that you have, to keep Exiern the way it is, then own that decision. It is, after all, your decision, and in the end, you should decide because it is your decision and not because any external pressures make you think you should decide a certain way.
If you want to continue drawing nudity, do so. If you want to stop, do so as well. When you get right down to it, the rest of your explanation is either someone else’s words or your own justification.
Justifications are, in many ways, the REAL path of darkness because they allow you to convince yourself that something you know is wrong, is in fact correct. I’m not applying that to this particular situation, you have to make that call, but don’t rely on justifications, just own the decision.
One more thing, strictly philosophical here, just because you start down a dark path doesn’t mean that you cannot leave that path. It is much easier to stay on the path, and you have to make hard decisions to leave the path. That’s where most people justify their actions rather than making those hard decisions. As an example, I knew a person whose income was a few hundred short every month. They liked to eat out and I advised them that if they ate at home 1 additional night per week, they would have enough cash to cover everything. They knew that they were on a dark path, they knew that they weren’t managing their finances well, but they continued to eat out until they declared bankruptcy.
Look, if you feel you are on a dark path, then own that feeling and make a decision about it. If you like being on the dark path and want to remain there, then own that decision. If you want off of the path, then own that reality and make the decisions to change, but lay off of the justifications as they only cheapen an otherwise bold decision.
For the record, either way, I’ll be here reading, editing, and contributing what I can.
— Jeff
Have you checked out Phil Foglio’s “XXXenophile”? Pure hard-core written and penciled by Phil and inked by a lot of other people, including Donna Barr and the late multi-Hugo-winning SF artist, Frank Kelly Freas.
Nothing wrong with writing/drawing feelthy peectures – just make sure that the smut isn’t the only reason.
Yoda’s voice, BTW, was Frank Oz.
Hmmm,
Remember this from a reader, taking the comic as a whole its very good – I keep
coming back. Others keep returning also. I know I am coming back for the story line
and art work. As far as the nudity goes, well if you believe in God he didn’t create
us with clothes. Since you are recieving income from both aspects of the site all
the better. Remember your creative ability shows in both, (smirk) its just easier to
appreciate when it is exposed 🙂
You do a good job, and despite the trans-gender love fests the nudity/sexuality doesn’t feel forced. Also I applaud you for the lack of angst, which is darker and I suspect easier to fall into when writing a story like this one.
I am another avid reader who has followed this comic for some time and never paid any money to see the “full monty” version. I like the comic for the story. Of course, I’ve never paid any money to see the “half monty” version either. And comics cost money to host and create. I understand what you do and you make a comic with a fun story. In short, you’ve made a comic that stands with or without nudity, while using nudity to finance it. That is a most…interesting compromise. 🙂
C’mon people. Most of the readers here wouldn’t have given a rat’s a!s about this comic if Drowemos hadn’t gotten the service of an art studio (or what passes for one these days) for the eyecandy pages. Studio Boom and their nudie pages were what skyrocketed this story off the hundreds of other comics at the time. Give credit where credit is due.